Old Stroud Green

procax

Has anyone seen the amazing photos of old N4/Stroud Green in the back of the Shaftsbury (Hornsey Road)? I could spend hours looking at them. Anyone have any stories from very old Stroud Green? Also, have just downloaded a great map of the area from 1876 from http://www.old-maps.co.uk My favourite part is the 'Lunatic Asylum' on Green Lanes.

wisteria53

Previous old maps discussions on SG.org: <http://www.stroudgreen.org/discussion/1318/old-maps/>; I may have to check out the photos at The Shaftesbury.

Thomas

Noticed on my old map of Stroud Green that Charteris Road was originally called Moray Road and that Woodfall Road was called Moreland St. Anyone know the reasons for the name changes?

krappyrubsnif

Here is a lovely painting of the original farmhouse in Stroud Green in 1820:  It just looks so rural and bucolic and quaint it's hard to imagine it's just by the traffic lights at the bottom of Crouch Hill. The shell of this building still exists, it's Stapleton Hall. Today it's hidden off Stapleton Hall Road and converted into flats, but back then it had a frontage and garden facing south west, towards the top of Stroud Green Lane. It was an old country house surrounded by gardens and open space, with a little drive in front, and probably facing out over a little village green. To see this view in 1820, I think you would have to be standing roughly where 'five ways' traffic light is now, with the Larrik / Stapleton Tavern on your left, looking ahead. What you see now is the ugly triangle-shaped shop selling gearboxes (or whatever they are), on the angle in between Mount View Crescent and SH Road, Stapleton Hall is in behind. It looks like there was once a little triangular green (the original Stroud Green?) in the area where the gear box shop is today, with the fence and the five barred gate and the farmhouse beyond. In the painting, there's a gate (firmly closed) at the end of the house at the right - that becomes Stapleton Hall Road when the road is built. It all comes clear when you look at this map (just before 1870):  I found the picture in a book, don't know who painted it or why or where the original is. Probably done by one of the farmer's family to stick on the wall. Rather a charming scene I thought. Hope that helps.

Arkady

That's wonderful KRS. Which book did you find it in?

krappyrubsnif

"People and Places - Lost Estates in Highgate, Hornsey and Wood Green" (Hornsey Historical Society,1996). There's a chapter on Stapleton Hall by local chap Roy Hidson.

Papa

KRS, that is fantastic. Best Old Stroud Green post I've seen. Which map is that that you've taken the detail from? I'd love to get a copy.

Arkady

Yes I'd like to know that too. I'd be curious to see more of the map, especially to the east. historical sources that I have read make it clear that the owners of the Stapleton estate resisted development on their land until quite late. Thus Stapleton Hall Road and development to the north up to the Hogs Back ridge (Mount View Rd) being mostly 1880s (1890s and later north of the ridge in Hornsey Vale). But I've never been too clear on the area between Upper Tollington Park and Stapleton Hall Rd, where the building appears to be mainly 1870s like south of Upper Tollington. It therefore interests me that the above map shows development only on the Islington side of SGR.

Arkady

@KRS - is it possible that the picture shows the view from what would become Stapleton Hall Rd, the view we get now? I know that the 'hall' has been rebuilt at various times, and much of it is now late victorian so it's hard to tell. But I note that in the vuiew above the largest structure has three windows per floor, whereas it now has four. I wonder whether the largest structure shown is a later addition now demolished (and subsequently replaced in the new development), and the surivivng hall is the structure that we have a gable-end view of in that picture.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Tallboy

I am sitting in my living room looking out onto Stapleton Hall, across the garden. It is not very hidden off Stapleton Hall Road. No. 5 Stapleton Hall Road. Flats with the communal gated garden. As you view from the street the old Hall is the block on the right. Still looks very similar to the picture.
This almost makes me Lord of the Manor. You may soon hear a knock on the door. I believe there are quite a few tithes that haven't been collected.

krappyrubsnif

Arkady, all I can tell you is that the map is the 1870 map of the area - the official Ordnance Survey or official government map I believe. I have a framed copy somewhere, but will be hard to find at present as it's been stored due to builders in the house. Though published 1870, the survey must have been done a few years earlier. I know this because my house was built that year (1870) and it is not on the map. I have the original deeds. I live on the east side of Stroud Green Road. Incidentally that answers your query about the area between Upper Tollington Park and Stapleton Hall Road - you're right, about 1870. I'll cut and paste some of the text from the book when I have time - the full story is in there. Or ISBN 0 905794 17 6 if you can find it. Welcome to borrow my copy.

Arkady

@Tallboy - similar yes, except it now has four windows per floor not three. @KRS - thanks for that. I might take a trip to the Hornsey Historical society and find myself a copy! A

mapsa

You can buy the 1870 map (as well as the 1894 and 1912 versions) from [Alan Godfrey](http://www.alangodfreymaps.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http://www.alangodfreymaps.co.uk/acatalog/Inch_to_the_Mile_Maps.html&WD=park finsbury&PN=London__Sheets_20-29.html#a2214#a2214)

ladysmall

You can buy lots of Alan Godfrey maps at the Hornsey Historical Society on Tottenham Lane. It's in the old building on the bit of green by the W3 bus stop.

ChangN4N6

Do u have to be a member of the Historical Society to go there ? Chang

woolly

You can buy copies of old maps from Islington Local History Centre in Finsbury Library. There's a pdf about them <a href="http://www.islington.gov.uk/Leisure/heritage/heritage_lhc/lhc_collections/localhistorycollections.asp?extra=4" target="_blank">on this page</a>

gardener-joe

The painting is in the Bruce Castle, Tottenham, collection. Older maps of the area can be found by a careful rummage through the MOTCO website: http://motco.com/ See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map-_Stroud_Green,_London_1786.jpg

ChangN4N6

Funny on that old map Hornsey Road was known as Devil's Road....spooky there now sometimes...,have u seen da woman in black? Chang

miss annie

<p>One of our W.I. members is the manager of Bruce Castle museum, she gave us the most fabulously interesting talk about it's history and the collection.</p>

Papa

Chang, nope, no need to be a member, just wander in and you can have a browse of the Hornsey Historical Society books and there's a whole row of old maps. I did the other day. Corner of Rokesly Avenue and Tottenham Lane, just up and over Ferme Park Road.<br><br>Website says: 'normally open for sales and enquiries on Thursdays and Fridays from10 am to 2 pm, and on Saturdays from 10.30 am to 4.30 pm.'<br>

Siolae

Wonder who lived in "Devil's House" which looks to be on the corner of Hornsey and Hanley Roads.

Arkady

Somebody De Ville.  There's something about in the Victoria History.  I seem to recall that the name was later incorrectly conflated with that of a famous highwayman.<br>

Mirandola

Wrote about it here:  <a href="http://thehornseyroad.blogspot.com/2011/10/devils-lane-and-dick-turpin.html">http://thehornseyroad.blogspot.com/2011/10/devils-lane-and-dick-turpin.html</a><div><br></div><div>It's not the most reliable source though. </div>

Reg

KRS, great map, thanks. <div><br></div><div>I thought this might be of interest (I started writing and it got quite long - it interests me as a bit of local social history)</div><div><br></div><div>I have got all the deeds to my house dating from 1878 (Corbyn Street). The oldest I have is 'an indenture' between The Right Honorable Frederick Earl Beauchamp (the lessor) and Alfred East and Thomas East (Builders) and Charles Edwin Pomeroy. It goes on to state that in consideration of the expense which Alfred and Thomas East "been at in erecting the messuage and premise" and of three hundred and thirty pounds (350 crossed out - a chip?) paid by the lessee to [mssrs] East... Charles Edwin Pomeroy was granted a 92 year lease of the property, one year at peppercorn the remainder at £6 a year.<div><br></div><div>I'm assuming I'm missing the lease between the Earl Beauchamp and the East brothers(?) which permitted them to build in the first place - again I assume they had a lease over an area of land of which my house was one of a few they were doing. Mr Pomeroy seemingly borrowed £290 from the Temperance Permanent Building Society to fund this. In 1883 it would appear that My Pomeroy borrowed a further £30 against the house from the same society.</div><div><br></div><div>The next document I have is an 1888 assignment of the lease by Josepha Pomeroy of 7 Victoria Road (widow - Mr Pomeroy died in 1886 it says), to Frederick Trinder of 21 Florence Road at a price of £270. The mortgage document in the name of Pomeroy does state that they had received their payment in full - we can only guess at the state of affairs Mr Pomeroy left to his wife.</div><div><br></div><div>To fund his acquisition Mr Trinder borrowed £100 from Charles Angelo Russ of 62 King William Street.</div><div><br></div><div>In 1895 Frederick Trinder (still described living at 21 Florence Road) then assigns to Mr Matthew Henry Whiting of 76 Tollington Park. Mr Whiting (described as a builder) paid £230 for the long lease (of which Mr. Russ had claim to £100 and Mr Trinder received £130).</div><div><br></div><div>In 1896 Mr Whiting then uses the property as security to borrow £100 from Mrs Elizabeth Ann Sandiford (wife of Joseph Rodford Sandiford, of 10 Isledon Road). Mrs Sandiford charged 5% pa for the loan.</div><div><br></div><div>In 1925, Frank Edward Whiting (an Architect and living in Littlecroft Bideford Devon and Stanley Kirby Whiting (an insurance clerk living at 26 Malmains Way, Park Langley, Beckenham) assigned the property to John William Frank Whiting (builder and decorator living at 130 Tollington Park). It would seem that Matthew Whiting died in 1922. Matthew's will appointed his wife Katherine Caroline Whiting and his two sons Frank and Stanley executors. In his will he stated that his brother John should within six months of his death have the option of exchanging his leasehold house on Thorpedale Road for this house on Corbyn Street. Odd, but it would seem they went ahead with the swap. </div><div><br></div><div>John Whiting died in 1936 at 8 St Alban's Villas, St Pancras and the property was left to his "dear wife Celia Whiting of 130 Tollington Park". His net estate was worth £613 on which Celia paid duty of £12.</div><div><br></div><div>Celia died in 1946 (living at 32 Lightfoot Road, Crouch End). In her will of 1940 she appointed Barclays Bank and her son-in-law Walter Harry Cox as executors and trustees. The property was sold (the residue of the leasehold interest) to Alfred Stanley Herbert for £300. </div><div><br></div><div>The next document is from 1960 which seems to suggest that the freehold has now moved from the Earl Beauchamp to "Holbury Limited" of 11 Lincoln's Inn Fields. In 1963 I have evidence of pre-contract searches and correspondence between Holbury Limited and A.F. Herbert (fruiterer and green grocer) (son of A.S. Herbert?) but no evidence of a transaction. Given that the next reference (1994) states the property is being sold only as a freehold (and that the original long lease was due to expire in the 1970s I assume this went ahead). The next document is from 1994 when the previous owners to me bought the freehold. I'll not name them as they are still local!</div><div><br></div><div>And now I'm here; with an equally burdensome loan to all of the previous occupiers. Nothing changes then.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>

Arkady

Thanks Reg, that's fascinating.  Is that Mr Trinder as in Trinder Road, I wonder?<br>

Siolae

Thanks all that's fascinating.  Great blog Mirandola!

Mirandola

Thanks Siolae!

ChangN4N6

Who was mr corbyn? Not the mp's family...?

Arkady

Here are some photos I took of the pictures in the Shaftesbury:<br><br>http://www.flickr.com/photos/67014684@N05/6775167680/in/photostream/<br><br>.<br><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7062/6775167680_28c726cf1b_b.jpg"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7038/6775165584_717946720c_b.jpg"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7052/6775162218_e222bce5d4_b.jpg"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7194/6775159908_33b5c21737_b.jpg"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7042/6921271927_33afdc4338_b.jpg"><br>

Arkady

For map-lovers, here's a presentation of maps of the Stroud Green/Crouch Hill area showing its 19th century development.  I love the fact that the Stroud Green Station bridge seen above (and the one over Upper Tollington Park) were built <i>before</i> the roads that later ran under them.  They gave access to fields that would otherwise have been cut off.<br><br><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7036/6775151282_7601973195_b.jpg"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7208/6921264175_279b2892a7_b.jpg"><img src="http://http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7207/6775147612_f7ec7bd642_b.jpg"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7196/6775145992_a81d58f82b_b.jpg"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7207/6775147612_f7ec7bd642_b.jpg"><br>