Islington council: Crouch Hill improvements/ Hanley Road 20mph zone

Cllr Richard Watts · November 2009

@Reg. You must have missed the post where i recounted my efforts to get the smart car to turn around and start doing something useful instead of just raising cash, which it does at the moment - to no avail. You're also right that consultation on these schemes is pretty flawed and it's a frustration for the local councillors in Tollington, who are all in opposition to the admninstration which decides on speed bumps. I should add that we have also been lobbied heavily by some of your nieghbours who wanted more bumps.

@poxy: The old OS maps for the area do show that Wray Crescent and Turle Rd almost connected at some point and I assume the gap is courtesy of the Luftwaffe (the Barking-Gospel Oak line was part of the the main munitions route to Tilbury and so heavily bombed). There is an old guy who lives on Hanley road (currently without speed bumps) who witnessed the V2 rocet attack that created the space that is now eilled by the Crouch Hall Court etstae.

andy · November 2009

The X is where the treasure is. Alternatively, it's where the 'hybrid scheme' removed one of the bumps. I was being a nerd and comparing the pre and post-consultation maps. The Green is "proposed entry treatment". This is on the western ends of Grenville, Corbyn and Thorpedale and the eastern end of Sparsholt. I don't know what this means. Also, the bumps are "proposed sinusoidal humps", which are the tapered ones like you get on Tollington. [Have edited the title of this thread to add the 20mph bit]

becky · November 2009

I'm *really* angry about this too. They've marked one right outside our house on Regina Road so I will now have to endure the constant noise of cars braking and revving as they go over the speed bump. As Papa L says, it is a narrow road and impossible to go above 20 mph. I'm going out to buy some chains to tie myself to the digger when it comes to put the bumps on our road.

Ian · November 2009

I am livid with this. I responded to the consultation, as others did here, as I absolutely didn't want speed bumps. I even bothered looking at the DfT study which showed that even these bumps increase noise. Some neighbours may well lobby because they want change. I didn't want change so didn't feel the need to lobby. It isn't a great cause "What do we want - nothing". When a consultation came out, however, I voted and this decision has ignored that vote. How the council can ignore a consultation so fragrantly is beyond me. If the problem is that they can't get funding without the bumps they should rerun the consultation with two options, to have bumps and 20 or to stick at 30. In that consultation I'd stick with 30. It's pretty difficult to go quickly down my street in any case.

ADGS · November 2009

"The legal position is that consultations aren't binding but any politicians would be daft if they ignored the results. So your ultimate weapon is voting against the Council administration which pushes ahead with these schemes in the face of local opposition."

Because of course we all know that when you chuck one lot of high-handed chancers out of power, the other lot will be lovely and responsive and not at all 'meet the old boss, same as the new boss'.
I do make a point of voting in all elections, responding to consultations &c (I was another who opted for speed limit, no bumps), but increasingly it feels like a reflex or a superstition rather than something where I should ever expect a result.

Liz · November 2009

Worth having a crack at challenging them on this, I would think. Questions I would ask: 1) Why were people who were against the 20mph scheme not given a say in what measures should be introduced if it came in? Just because you oppose something doesn't mean you shouldn't get a say in how it is implemented. This seems to me to be a fairly major flaw in how they carried out the consultation. 2) It's reasonable that decisions like this are not made on the balance of public opinion alone as there are probably a range of other valid sources of evidence on efficacy, safety, etc (leaving aside the TfL funding issues....). However, what level of public opposition would there need to have been for the decision to go the other way? How did the Council weight the different sources of evidence? They ought to be able to be transparent about the decision making process. 3) Did the consultation process follow the Cabinet Office Code of Practice on public consultation? <http://www.dius.gov.uk/office_for_science/science_in_government/strategy_and_guidance/~/media/publications/F/file44364>; It's not legally binding for local authorities but they ought to be following it. (Ironically, I can't find the Code of Practice on the Cabinet Office website itself as it's under review, but I'm pretty sure this one from DIUS - which doesn't actually exist any more - is the right one.)

busman · November 2009

Unfortunately as there are so many knob heads driving up Thorpedale / Corbyn since the re-surfacing work has made it into a race track, I have to say that any form of traffic calming is welcomed. There is a black 57 plate Audi TT who seems to revel in raking the shit out of it in second to about 60 from Marriott to Almington. Added to complete cock doing endos and wheelies in the road on his motorbike whilst my daughter was pushing her scooter on the pavement - probably doing more like 80 in between his bits of fun. I would be quite happy with a 10 mile per hour limit - especially as there as a school and a kids playground in our road. As for the motorcyclist using the road as a stunt track - He really should save that behaviour for the track

wisteria53 · November 2009

You may complain about speed humps but at least Islington's are high enough to work. The ones put in by Haringey (I'm on Mount Pleasant Villas) are useless and slow down no one. We're still a rat run for cars speeding up/down the hill. Hanley Road is in desperate need of repaving - dangerous for cyclists and not great for cars either. I've used Fix My Street to report the numerous potholes to Islington Council, but nothing happens.

Papa · November 2009

Cllr Watts, I've now seen the map. I am fuming. This is flawed consultation. 61% of people voted against speed humps. No public notification of an area committee meeting that could decide to build them outside our front doors was given. If someone wants to build an extension we get a planning application notice, why not with a speed bump? There also appears to have been no consideration to different roads' characteristics. ie as pointed out Thorpedale / Corbyn are roads people would and do speed up, Regina Road is not. So the question is how do we challenge this abuse of democracy, waste of our money etc? Can we complain to some kind of council standards board?

Papa · November 2009

Busman, they're also so high as to be illegal <http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/content/articles/2008/10/29/london_speed_bumps_s14_w7_feature.shtml>;

David · November 2009

Something about Emily Thornberry MP scares the shit out of me.

Cllr Richard Watts · November 2009

@Papa L the final decision on these issues are made by officers and the executive councillor in chrage of roads etc, who is Greg Foxsmith, who represents Hillrise ward (north of Shaftesbury Road). His email is in an earlier post and more info on him is here: http://www.islington.gov.uk/council/Political/Councillors/councillor.asp?sectionid=&councillorid=42365. The contact details for the right officers should be in a letter which residents have recieved.

I am very happy to write on behalf of Regina Road residents that the consultation was flawed etc. The Hanley Road issue is being disucssed at the next meeting of the Council's North area committee and you cn ask to raise the Regina Road bumps issue at that.

sg_mike · November 2009

On another "Islington Highways are useless muppets" note, I phoned them up today to ask when they were going to fix the pedestrian crossing on SGR near the station. They said the roadworks were due to finish on 4th November, so they'll come and turn the lights back on tomorrow (5th Nov).

As soon as I pointed out that the roadworks had finished over three weeks ago, they started mumbling about the process for making complaints.

I don't know what annoys me more, the fact that they don't worry about the ped crossing being switched off for longer than necessary, or the fact that they haven't visited Stroud Green in the last three weeks.

Does Islington actually extend north of Seven Sisters Road? The pain in the arse thing is I live in Haringey, so I don't get to complain to my local councillor :-(

nick_m · November 2009

I agree with wisteria53 (rhymes) in that the Hanley Rd. surface is a total disaster and has been for ages. They have painted those silly little bicycle signs on the appaling road surface. As I'm in Haringey, I assume I have no voice on the matter. Some time ago, they also put in those automatic speed warning signs if a vehicle is travelling at over 30mph. What a complete waste of time and money; eveyone just ignores them - even the buses. This is why I'm pro-hump, or at least pro-calming. There's unfortunately a minority of drivers in London who are intent on using their vehicles as high-speed killing machines. I live on ferme park rd and the speeding is hellish; especially after they widened the road allowing cars to park on the pavement. The only effective deterrant is speed bumps or speed cameras; it doesn't bother me which one they use, but they have to be used. There is still way too much pro-car bias in this city.

poxy · November 2009

And another thing...

Have the traffic lights at Fiveways been altered? I took Jr out to the shop last night with him sat up on my shoulders. I nearly face-planted him into the side of the traffic lights which overhang the pedestrian waiting area.

The lights, of course, are painted jet-black making them difficult to see at night and are now only about 6'6" above the pavement. Just the right height for smacking him in the face.

andy · November 2009

So I've not heard from Cllr Foxsmith yet. Are there any other avenues we can pursue? Has anyone else heard from any of their emails?

Reg · November 2009

Heard nothing. Am amused by [this statement](http://www.islington.gov.uk/Transport/RoadsAndParking/street_improvements/20mph_zone_schemes.asp) on the Islington website though; "Hanley Road Area 20mph Zone This scheme is aimed at reducing the number of road traffic related accidents in the Hanley Road area. Funding for this scheme has been provided by Transport for London. The scheme should be completed by the end of March 2010, *subject to the outcome of consultation*." My reading of this then is that they have obliged themselves to recognise the consultation, no?? And to top off the discussion about whether the consultation has been a sham, is this [accident map](http://www.islington.gov.uk/DownloadableDocuments/TransportandStreets/Pdf/casualties06-08.pdf) for the borough Jan 2006 - Dec 2008. Yes, you read it correctly, one slight accident in the whole area in three years. Looking at it, you're worse off on roads *with* speed bumps...

Reg · November 2009

When I say whole area, I mean south of Hanley, north of Tollington, which is the bit that is annoying me the most. Sorry, Red Mist again.

hsb · November 2009

I'm with Reg and Becky and many others on this. Why put speed humps on streets like Corbyn when, according to the accident map there has never even been a slight injury let alone a serious one or fatality? The mind boggles really.That is unless of course all the serious accidents have happened this year (the map only goes up to 2008)? The engine noise generated by people speeding up and slowing down because of the bumps is in my mind more of an annoyance. And drivers tend to accelerate harder when confronted with a road of humps. Compared to many streets i have lived on in London i think Corbyn is really quiet and rarely do i see speeding cars. What is the point of having a 'consultation' that votes 61% in favour of a 20 mph area with no traffic calming measures (i.e. bumps etc...) and then to just go ahead and put traffic calming measures in anyway? What is the point of having a consultation at all? I suspect it is a case of the council obviously knowing best and not caring what the majority think and they probably had funding for the scheme already in place. It feels so great to be consulted and have a valued say in what the council does. Why bother?

Papa · November 2009

HSB, I'm with you on that. In fact, the one thing most visitors always say to us is how incredibly quiet our road is. I feel for anyone who worries about speeding and their kids etc. but this was put to a vote and 61% of people voted no humps so that should be what happens. Plus I don't think humps make roads safer, I think they make them more dangerous as people who'd speed accelerate and brake for them. I have no statistical proof to back that up but then as the council has shown, who needs statistics.

andy · November 2009

Right. But WHAT DO WE DO?

jandb · November 2009

Source some top quality gunpowder and blow up the town hall.

Ian · November 2009

@Andy. Campaign time. Leaflet? Letters to newspapers? Website? Publicity stunt? Slogan to get cheap headline. There is no point in a petition as they have already done an open consultation where people had the full information and opposed the council's decision. I'm up for doing all I can to stop this - the thought of people slowing down and then revving up all night keeping me awake is not a happy one. Lack of accidents makes me even more baffled as to how this is so important to the council that they want to mess us about in this way. I also have not heard a peep from the emails to the council or the councillor responsible. It's not clear what the ward councillors' positions are. Given the residents' wishes as set out in the consultation are they against the decision or are they happy with the compromise? It might be that we have to pressure them a bit as well. On a practical level it might be worth looking at the rules over public consultations and check that they have followed them to the letter - usually there is a mistake somewhere as the processes are often so steeped in guidelines it is impossible to not make some mess ups.

dion · November 2009

@ Reg - is there an accident map for Haringey? Anyone with better internet skills than me? <www.haringey.gov.uk/21417ce_borough_profile_guide_chpt_4.pdf> was the closest I got...

ADGS · November 2009

"Plus I don't think humps make roads safer, I think they make them more dangerous as people who'd speed accelerate and brake for them. I have no statistical proof to back that up but then as the council has shown, who needs statistics."

Right after passing my driving test in the mid-nineties, I was enlisted in a project researching just this sort of stuff at Nottingham University. They put a helmet on your head with a ton of cameras in, sat you in a car full of loads more cameras, and set you driving around the area, monitoring every eye movement you made &c. Talking to the people running the project (as you do when you're in a car with someone for an hour a time with no music), I asked about traffic calming, and they answered that it does work - but the degree to which it works is inversely proportional to how much of it you have.
So, if you put some bumps in the street outside the local primary school, hurrah, people will slow down and not splat the kiddies. But, the more widely you spread those bumps around the area, the more you dilute the effect. And so ultimately, the more likely you make it that it's kiddysplat time again.
But, he was a scientist, and we all know how they're dangerous subversives who should consider themselves lucky to be ignored by politicians, right?

pseudonym · November 2009

What can you do?

Writing well-considered letters/emails to councillors and local newspapers can make a difference. You can also make a complaint against the council if you believe they have not adequately dealt with the problem.

http://www.islington.gov.uk/Council/complaints.asp

Not all councils take complaints seriously, but if you really want to do something you can at least try. If that doesn't work you can contact the Local Government Ombudsman.

busman · November 2009

@ HSB if you have never seen anyone speeding on either Corbyn or Thorpedal then either you dont know what a car travelling at 30 mph looks like or you havent stood there long enough. It is safe to say that at least 50% of vehicles, if not more exceed the speed limit at some point on Thorpedale - usually around the entrance to Wray Crescent open space. If you are saying that most cars dont speed excessively , this may be a different matter. I would be happy to lose the speed humps and live with a 20MPH limit enforced by random, unmarked radar cameras together with regular enforcement of un-insured vehicles using number plates reading technology.

nick_m · November 2009

I agree. You live in a different city to me if cars do not speed on your road.

Ali · November 2009

I guess it is illegal how about a bit of local action. Create a stunt ! You can get a speed bump for about £170 at http://www.speedbumpsltd.co.uk/ Nail it to the Road and invite the local papers around to photograph lots of Mums with young kids and bring Granny as well! Hand out leaflets encourage people to vote against the current councillors when the chance occurs. Result will be result ! Did something once before as a stunt in the save the Parkland Walk campaign. We got some roofing felt, painted white stripes on it , put it across SGR about where the Chinese Massage is. Then we had some one dressed a policeman sleeping in deck chair and proceed to have a continuous stream of people , using the “crossing”. Traffic jam all the way back up to Crouch End, police over reaction and loads of local paper publicity. This is one of the reasons why there is a crossing outside Tescos.

andy · November 2009

Still nothing from Councillor Foxsmith (not even an acknowledgement of my email), which is pretty disappointing. Has anyone heard anything from Fletcher or others? (apart from cllr watts, who is on here already) Did anyone write to the Islington Gazette or other local papers?

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Islington council: Crouch Hill improvements/ Hanley Road 20mph zone

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