Haringey Council - Sex Establishment consultation

Eliz · October 2010

Haringey Council are currently consulting on their proposal to limit the number of sex establishments (cinemas, shops, lap dancing clubs etc.) in the borough. They're suggesting a limit of 'nil' which would effectively mean no licences would be granted to any of these kind of establishments. I completely agree with this proposal and will be writing to support it. Further details are available on the [Council's website]( http://www.haringey.gov.uk/index/business/licensing_regulations/licensing/consultation_on_sex_establishment_policy.htm) if you're interested in finding out more. The closing date for comments is December 15th.

Arkady · October 2010

Prohibition makes the problem worse, applies to nearly everything. driving it undergeround won't improve women's welfare.

ADGS · October 2010

Yeah, this. cf the recent removal of all things sex-related from Craigslist, and subsequent complaints by all the groups who'd actually been working with vulnerable women, as against doctrinaire complainers, about how much harder their task had just become.

Arkady · October 2010

Quite. And I must say I’m sceptical about the merits of deciding this matter by poll. It should be decided by experts, not by populism, it’s too emotive.

ADGS · October 2010

Except that the 'experts' are the ones who've come up with this nil target, while also making the hypocritical claim that "Moral objections will therefore not be taken into consideration".

Eliz · October 2010

Arkady, should 'experts' rather than local residents really decide what's best for Haringey? They're not the ones who may have to walk home past lap dancing clubs late at night. Also, it's not a poll but a consultation in the same way that they consult on all changes to policies from road planning to traffic calming. The eventual policy will be decided by the elected members of the Council.

Arkady · October 2010

A fair point. I don’t understand how these establishments could be declined on the basis that “The Council’s vision is to achieve greener, cleaner, sustainable communities and neighbourhoods to enable a good quality of life for all” unless they’re making a moral judgement about ‘clean’. And the list of places that a sex establishment cannot be opened near might as well be crossed out and replaced with ‘anywhere within Haringey’.

Arkady · October 2010

Eliz, I don’t think that one group of people should be able to prevent another group from providing or using a service because of their moral judgment, no. I’d rather walk past a lap dancing club than the White Lion of Mortimer, and it would probably be less dangerous too. Unless you have decided that sexual labour is distinct from other kinds of labour on moral grounds I don’t see why you would have a problem walking past it, and that’s not a moral judgment that should be imposed on others anyway. Nor should you want to, the evidence that illegality makes conditions worse for sex workers has long been overwhelming. Opposing liberalisation of the sex industry strikes me as a reactionary, anti-feminist position based –ironically - on patriarchal morality.

Marquis · October 2010

Is there a definition anywhere of what constitutes a sex establishment? Does this include sexuality themed venues?

tosscat · October 2010

I imagine not Marquis - too discriminatory. I'm struggling to think of a sex establishment in SG - can anyone help me out?

Arkady · October 2010

One is known of, but I'm sworn to secrecy.

Arkady · October 2010

There's also that scary looking 'sauna' on SS road.

Marquis · October 2010

There might be a sneaky kind of discrimination involved as sexuality-themed establishments tend to be also sex-themed (as this is what the sexuality is made up of). As the council proposal has more of a future focus I don't think it matters whether or not establishments of this kind are around at present. Although I'd love to hear about Arkady's secret.

Arkady · October 2010

Marquis: Ask the knitting group. I had to ply a member with more than one large glass of red wine to extract the information. It’s rather specialist though.

miss annie · October 2010

And the one on Hornsey Road just opposite the park. I agree completely with Arkady's point about prohibition, historically it never works. Prostitution and the associated sex trafficking is not an issue that will be resolved by ruling that if you can't see it it doesn't exist. It warrants a more adult discussion. I walk past a lapdancing club on my way home from work and never feel unsafe - I assume that there are more delights readily available inside than I could possibly offer. I often talk to the ladies who work there and they are very sweet and earn stacks of cash!

Arkady · October 2010

Perhaps I should make it clear that I’m not accusing the knitting group of being a front for a brothel, though that would be hilarious.

miss annie · October 2010

You could be the pimp Arkady, although you'd need a more garish suit. I could be paid in shoes.

Arkady · October 2010

My housemate has a red PVC trilby that I could steal.

miss annie · October 2010

That would be just the thing! Now if you could just rustle up a floor length fur coat we'd be away. I will propose it to the knitters.

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janez · October 2010

Eliz, thank you for the link, I will write for support.

Hopping Mad · October 2010

Misscara, wasn't that a thong you knitted for my cat?

WillM · October 2010

Misscara, are we talking about the Thai place here?

Amanda · October 2010

Legalising and 'normalising' both sex establishments and prostitution has been shown to have several unintended results: firstly a massive rise in the number of such establishments, secondly (and this surprised all the researchers) a spectacular rise in unlicensed, illegal, underage and trafficked sex workers on the margin, along with concommitant violence against those workers. What is more, just as BNP electoral campaigns in an area lead to an increase in assaults on gay, black and ethnic minority residents so sex establishments encourage attacks on women. I sympathise with the position of those hoping to remove the stigma from individuals caught up in this appalling exploitation but if anyone tells you that it is normal or a matter of free choice then they have not read the research coming out of Holland, Germany, Australia or Nevada. Finally, I do not want my sons growing up thinking that it is ever acceptable to view women like this.

Jenowl · October 2010

I agree that this is a complex issue. As Amanda says, the 'normalising' of such establishments has had a negative impact on many women directly involved. Miss Annie, it's great that you're not bothered but I always walk past with a shudder of humiliation that they exist in such an open and accepted way on the high street and all women just have to put up with them, and that young men (and women) will grow up thinking they are fine and that what goes on in them is fine and a normal part of society/business/leisure. Arkady I can see your point about imposing a moral judgement on others, but the difference between walking past the WLM and one of these places is that the WLM does not sexually discriminate.

Sevlow · October 2010

I totally disagree with this proposal. What the area needs is MORE sex shops, lapdancing venues etc...

I reckon a lapdancing place on SGR would go down a storm. Oh and a cinema wouldn't go a miss either.

Arkady · October 2010

What do you mean by discriminate? I'd be happy for a male sex establishment too.

emine · October 2010

Hmm, nothing "anti-feminist" about opposing the liberalisation (normalisation) of a vastly exploitative industry run by men for men, which can be extremely dangerous for the women within it and perpetuates inequality, objectification and sexual violence against women in general.

Legalisation does nothing to protect the women who work in it - often reluctant to register and comply with regulations, it forces them back on to the street or to work for illegal operations. Even in legalised places, a large proportion of women are trafficked and there is little evidence to suggest it improves their employment rights. The rise in the number of establishments, as Amanda has said, also results in women in competition for business and forced into more dangerous situations ("agreeing" to violent sex, sex without condoms etc).

Thanks for that link, Eliz. I will write too. It annoys me when objections to the sex industry (I include lap dancing in this) are made to look like they're coming from some kind of nimby prudish morality.

Arkady · October 2010

How does it perpetuate inequality? The problems that you describe are failures of regulation. Strengthen the regulations and enforce them better sure, but pushing the problem into the backstreets and the hands of unregulated pimps and drug dealers cannot be the answer. Fundamentally, selling sex is just another form of labour unless you attach a different moral value to it. I should have the right to sell sex if I want to, so should you. People will still do it if you make it illegal, except now you have criminalised both parties and driven them underground where they cannot be protected at all. Always open to change my mind though. If you want to point me in the direction of academic evidence making the counter-argument I’ll happily engage with it.

miss annie · October 2010

Prostitution is not illegal in this country, the activity surrounding it is - pimping, running a brothel, kerb crawling, soliciting etc. This prevents women (and men) from offering a paid for service in a safe environment. No amount of legislation will stop prostitution, it's not called the oldest profession for nothing. What legalising and regulating it in some form it will help to do is make it safer for the people who have chosen to do it and those who choose to pay for it. Something like 10% of men under 30 have admitted to paying for sex. If one assumes that not everyone is willing to admit it, and that demand for that service has always been around, This likely to mean that we all know someone who has paid for sex. Would you rather your friend (brother, boyfriend, husband) picked someone up in some grubby old alley or went to a monitered, regulated , safe place?

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