The Park

[Deleted User] · September 2011

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jdarby · September 2011

Yes it is increadibly sad what is happening to our local Parks since staff numbers were cut by 50%. Finsbury Park in particular had so much investment but now all the flower beds are overgrown & full of weeds, planting is neglected and maintence not happening. Rubbish is frequently all over the park and I have experienced two incidents recently with my children finding a hyperdermic needle (near Oxford Road entrance) and being rather too close to comfort to used condoms. I am also noiticing an increase in people sleeping rough in the park, not that they are causing problems as such but it is an indicator of neglect of the space. There has been someone camping in a tent in the park for a few weeks now. I have also seen an increase in people drinking heavily in certain areas. Without a noticable staff presence the park is starting to not fee quite so safe (parents had to leave dog free picnic area one eve this week due to apparent chaotic behaviour by a number of men with bottles of drink and this was after school).

It may be worth posting your concerns on Harringayonline community forum as many active community people go on that site, as do a number of local Councillors. Also the more people that report such concerns to the council the greater the chance they will listen ( go on there 'how did you rate your park visit' bit of council's web site). The friends of Haringey Parks Forum have also been actively campaigning to increase staffing to previous levels and have been documenting some of the concnerns. I believe they are handing in a petition of over 2000 signatures on Friday 4.30 to the Civic Centre if you want to join them ( press with be there), this means the Council will be forced to debate the issue in cabinet I think. Hope that's helpful

miss annie · September 2011

Yes, it is sad that the cuts have meant that the park is looking neglected. However, I have seen aforementioned groups of parents and picnickers drop cigarette butts and leave picnic and food refuse behind when they leave too. And in one remarkable instance a dirty nappy! It's not just the ne'er do wells and drinkers that make the mess. Writing to the council is the best bet but let's all try to do our bit too. On the plus side, my chap found a tenner on the grass last time we went to the park so one man's trash really is another man's treasure sometimes.

Ali · September 2011

So this is the situation 6mths into the cuts I wonder how things will be after Christmas in the last quarter when there will really be little public money about. Is this not an idea issue for our LibDem Councillors and MP to campaign about ? It certainly used to be their bread and butter way of getting people to vote for them. Lynne F and Councillor Wilson where are you ?

Ilovegreyhounds · September 2011

As a daily user of Finsbury Park I agree that some areas have really gone downhill. The rubbish strewn around the park after a warm weekend or a bank holiday when people have been having picnics is really shocking. Trouble is that a lot of people DO pick up after themselves and stuff their rubbish in the small bins available but if these are not emptied on a daily/twice daily basis at busy periods there is overflowing rubbish and the more careless park users are even less inclined to clear up after themselves. A solution could be a large wire open bins that City of London use in Hampstead Heath.

Kaz · October 2011

Walking past on the Green Lanes/Endymion Rd sides last night after dark, both the gates on that side were still open. Maybe they were just running late with closing them. I am also pretty sure someone is sleeping in the huts by the softball field. The park has been a mess the last few times I have been there as well. Rubbish everywhere, cans, condoms, bottles, general rubbish, overflowing bins... Very sad.

Ali · October 2011

It is not sad it is cuts !

graeme · October 2011

Guess those PPP and PFI hospitals and schools need to be paid for somehow eh.

Brodiej · October 2011

Overflowing bins might suggest a reduction in council services, but the rest just suggests that the general public think thats it ok to drop litter and not clean up after themselves. i.e. its someone elses job. No it isn't.

Ali · October 2011

Fair enough comment but you need to get real as I guess you will have more chance of changing people’s habits on leaving crap around than getting any more money! I also suspect not much thinking is going on with the individuals who do this! The cuts have also hit the planning Haringey’s Planning enforcement Department, they have sacked the person who put the complaints into their system. They are supposed have a 3 days SLA in appointing a planning officer to you. I am seeking compliance on something at the moment, originally submitted via web site 9th Sept, submitted again on the 11th, then on 19th nothing happened then spoke to someone after a wait of 39 mins on the phone, asked to e-mail a summary which I did. Nothing happens again, three phone calls and finally on the 30th get the compliance allocated to a planning officer. Meanwhile the illegal building continues almost to a point where it is irreversible . This is on a site which has planning permission refused I think about 6 times and has a current ongoing waste disposal problem.

Papa · October 2011

It's not cuts,

It's a poor reaction by a badly run organisation to proposed cuts.

At the same time as failing to look after the park, Haringey has created a role of Director of Place and Sustainability, on £140k.

That would pay for five full time park cleaning staff in £25,000 a year.

And I know which one of the two options most of the council's constituents would choose.

Brodiej · October 2011

Sorry, i just can't get my head around it being considered ok to spend public money on mopping up avoidable problems. Its the worst type of waste i can think of. You might be right in terms of realism, but perhaps if they continue to pile up the trash, the culprits might start to dislike it and not go anymore. If you clear it, they'll do it again. Papa Ls solution is a much better idea than another council director, but i would favour an enforcer with a MASSIVE rottweiler. He could decide whether to put doggie treats in the pockets of litterbugs, and watch them break the 400m record around the running track trying to avoid a mauling. If no dogs were available, a taser would suffice.

Margolada · October 2011

To be fair, one cleaning van turned up in the park late afternoon yesterday. I do wish there were some recycling bins - has anyone seen any? It would make cleaning a bit easier if all the bottles and cans were separated (or is it wishful thinking?)

Ali · October 2011

Papa L, Thought I would check a bit more into this and get some facts: I have just looked at the JD for this. The person is head of planning, community engagement, regeneration, leisure, culture and environmental management. The individual is accountable for and lead official on environmental health, planning, transport, economic development, regeneration (including housing development), environmental services, waste management, leisure, culture and customer services. You might be interested in the FOI at <http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/director_of_place_sustainability>; which gives much more detail. I also suspect the job holder is responsible for a couple hundred million budget so is £140k that great a salary for that? The person who has got the job is <http://www.haringey.gov.uk/index/news_and_events/latest_news/haringey_council_welcomes_new_director.htm>; Good thing is that it looks the council have got it organised so there is a single point of responsibility for a lot of the day to day things which affect us all – That has got to be good

Papa · October 2011

Thanks Ali,

Very interesting.

However, I'd argue that £140,000 a year is far too much.

I think you could get someone who could do this job very well for £100,000 a year or less, and that saving is a couple of extra lower paid staff to clean the park etc.

The higher level public sector has become far too much of a highly paid merry go round industry.

And the cosy pitting of the public sector against the private sector and vice versa, is a nice little smokescreen for fat cats on both sides to stop those lower down the scale from asking too many questions.

PS. I hope you get some joy with the planning people.

Ali · October 2011

This gives an idea of what Haringey council officials were paid a couple of years ago. It shows how much they thought they had to pay to get someone to take over social services after the Baby Peter episode <http://www.haringey.gov.uk/haringey_senior_officer_disclosures_09-10.pdf>; I think there is a rule that paying more than £150,000 needs Exchequer approval. I bet most of the salaries are just below £150k The current government asked Will Hutton in June 2010 to provide a report of fair play in the public sector in which he was asked to ensure that the highest paid person should not get more than 20 times the lowest. Take the minimum wage and a 40 hour week you get a number of up to £252,928 for the highest paid! So I guess is £140k too much I doubt it but I do think that there should be much more visible transparency of what public servants are paid ie it should be published when you get your rates bill an be in the Haringey people and local papers at least once a year. It would then allow the conversation on whether they provide good value for money !

mapsa · October 2011

They are required to publish it in their accounts every year. This includes a full breakdown of the number of staff who are paid "just below £150k". The answer for 2009/10 was not "most", but in fact "zero" (it took me a full twenty seconds of research to establish that, damn this lack of transparency).

rainbow_carnage · October 2011

£140,000 is far, far more that I will ever make, but it's not actually that much money considering the scope of the job. People always complain about incompetence at the top. You get what you pay for. Why would someone who's brilliant with finance take on the mess that is Haringey council when he could be making several times as much working in the city? I'm not saying that Lyn Garner is particularly competent. I had never heard of her before today. But if she is, £140,000 is not an unreasonable salary.

Papa · October 2011

I wouldn't say that there has been a direct correlation between competent running of services and the rise in high level public sector wages.

In fact, incompetence, self-interest and lack of accountability appears to have accelerated with wages.

The argument 'we have to pay that to attract the best, look at the private sector is often put forward,' generally by those trying to justify their massive wages.

Yet it conveniently ignores the fact that the two are very different in terms of performance expectations, sackability and benefits.

I suspect that many of those earning £70 to £150k in councils, transport authorities and healthcare would not last very long in Tesco's head office, for example.

If not just for the fact that these organisations seem to believe the general public is there to do what the organisation wants, rather than the other way round.

Ali · October 2011

Having worked in both sectors I would say that there are lots of overpaid “not very good people” in both the private and public sector. But what defines “not very good people”? I am sure lots of people would put me in that category while lots wouldn’t. I think most of it is down to leadership say compare Gordon Brown a dysfunctional leader, dysfunctional government vs Richard Branson good leadership, fairly good company if you ignore that he leverages everything using other people’s money to his own advantage and avoids tax etc according to the various books. You could be right about the Council doing what we perceive is convenient for them but does the private sector not also do that eg Trying to make you do everything on line, making it difficult to get through on a call centre etc I can tell you Tesco’s man would not last 5 minutes in the public sector the world is littered with private sector people not doing great in the public sector. You always hear about public sector IT disasters don’t worry theirs loads of them in the private sector you just don’t hear about them.

andy · October 2011

The CEO of Capita makes £10m a year, including share options Many of the senior folk at Capita were once in the public sector. Capita was founded as the outsourcing arm of CIPFA. The Chartered Institute of Public Finance Accountants. So, public sector beancounters. The bulk of their turnover is public sector contracts, like the congestion charge. Senior contract jobs probably look a lot like senior public sector jobs. But they are measured and rewarded in a different way. This public=good, private=bad or public=bad, private=good got muddy and complicated a long time ago.

rainbow_carnage · October 2011

Ali, you make it sound like it's a mystery. It's easy to see who's good at their job, but it's damn near impossible to fire someone for incompetence. Incompetent people should not be employed in jobs they cannot do, regardless of the salary. This is just anecdotal evidence, but out of the people I went to school with, the brightest ones went into the private sector. They're in their early 30s. They've been making six figures since leaving uni. The ones with the mediocre grades ended up in the public sector (or in 'media' jobs, whatever those are).

dion · October 2011

@ Ali - easier life in Tesco Head Office or working for the Council Head Office? Life at one of the world's most aggressive retailers or at one of the UK's worst councils?

miss annie · October 2011

I can guarantee that any job in retail is going to be a whole lot more pressurised and demanding than any job at the council. Plus the hours are much less sociable in retail and there are are far fewer benefits.

ADGS · October 2011

Really? So working in a nice little indie bookstore or record shop is more stressful than being one of the noise abatement bods who has to turn up at parties or bars full of lairy drunks and tell them to turn down the racket?

Papa · October 2011

The noise abatement bods don't get the plum £70 to £150k salaries - neither do the blokes cleaning the park, the man cleaning the street, the person dealing with the public complaints, etc.

The people at the top of the public sector, the public sector contractors and public good sector, ie railways, water, utilities, are rinsing us for everything we've got, while repeatedly providing a lousy and poor value service run for their own convenience not ours.

All you need to do is trawl this site to see plenty of examples of two neighbouring councils, some utility companies and a railway and transport authority repeatedly ignoring what people want while lining their own pockets.

That's what people should be demonstrating about, as well as the massive transference of wealth to the financial sector, while the risk has been transferred back to the taxpayers.

My point is the public sector fat cats are just as bad as the private sector ones.

The sooner we wise up to this - and the lower level private sector and public sector stop fighting it out among themselves and instead turn their anger on the bosses milking them - the sooner we can start improving things.

ADGS · October 2011

Last paragraph: agreed wholeheartedly.

Ali · October 2011

Rainbow. It is not that easy to sack someone true or not true? It is quite easy to sack someone in the public sector it just takes time to do it. I have done it several times before. It usually takes about a year although when re-orgs are put in place people are put at risk have to be interviewed to get one of the reduced numbers of posts, if they don’t get one they get a while to find a job in house then it is severance. I know that has happened at least twice in LU in the last two years and people do really loose their jobs, has happened at lot in Haringey council as well. Most of the recent unemployment has come from this. Employment laws are there to try and ensure fairness etc ie How do you deal with bullying and how that affects peoples performance or poor leadership. I have seen bullying go on an example being everyone in the team had “dirty finger nails” ie had worked their way up from being a technician , a member of the team has a degree gets bullied, down goes the performance, people gossip suddenly the person is useless better sack them then ! On your pals who are making a decent wedge is there any correlation on what they were good at school compared to the mediocre ie did one lot do science and Latin and the others arts and media or is there a correlation with aspiration family background etc? Dion. You missed my point is that Tesco head office man has self selected to work at a supposed aggressive company. If he turned up in a local council he would probably fall flat on his back as he/she would not know how to get things done ! It is bit like the problems senior officers have when they leave the services get a job and find out that people don’t obey their orders it is a different culture, does mean it is wrong it is just different. Papa L kind of agree with you when you say when things are going well the so called “creators” take the cash but when it is down and out the debt created becomes socialised an pick up by the taxpayer. It will be interesting to see what happens in the UK if the banks start falling over. I wonder if the government will let a UK bank (RBS) fail as that was what they where advocating last time in 2008.

yagamuffin · October 2011

Apologies for continuing the thread hijack but...

Am I being dumb? Why are our elected councillors employing people on massive wages to run things? Surely this is what the councillors are there to do?

I don't see the government employing an unelected person to be minister...

Ali · October 2011

You do get the odd Lord or Lady as Ministers

mapsa · October 2011

Ministers may be in charge of policy, but Permanent Secretaries are the ones who run government departments, and they aren't elected.

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