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The Noble under new management
Thought I'd start a new, unbiased and fairly-titled discussion on The Noble, now that it's Under New Management.
Had a really rather tasty eggs Benedict for brunch there the other day, at what seemed a fair price. Recommended.
Are they sill doing 'tapas' in the evening?
My only grouch, was being asked (very politely indeed - almost apologetically) if I had any objection to paying a service charge (10% I think). And I paid. It was hard to refuse.
It did leave a bit of a bad taste though. I mean, I seem to remember that while the previous management did add service to main meals, the bar staff always seemed more than happy to bring over a refill or a new drink to your table whether you were eating expensively or not, and didn't ask for service. An extra charge on food and drinks for having a cheap snack carried three feet to your table seemed a bit over the top - or is that just my remote Pictish ancestry coming out?
Had a really rather tasty eggs Benedict for brunch there the other day, at what seemed a fair price. Recommended.
Are they sill doing 'tapas' in the evening?
My only grouch, was being asked (very politely indeed - almost apologetically) if I had any objection to paying a service charge (10% I think). And I paid. It was hard to refuse.
It did leave a bit of a bad taste though. I mean, I seem to remember that while the previous management did add service to main meals, the bar staff always seemed more than happy to bring over a refill or a new drink to your table whether you were eating expensively or not, and didn't ask for service. An extra charge on food and drinks for having a cheap snack carried three feet to your table seemed a bit over the top - or is that just my remote Pictish ancestry coming out?
Comments
A competent, knowledgeable waiter will not work for minimum wage. If you want a waiter who knows where your meat comes from and can recommend a wine to complement every dish on the menu, you need to pay him at least twice as much. So restaurants have a choice. They can either raise prices and pay their staff more or add a service charge. For tax purposes, most go with an 'optional' service charge. It's not really optional unless the waiter spills food in your lap or tells you to get your own fucking beer.
Until recently, restaurants could actually pay the staff less than the minimum wage and make up the difference with the services charge. Obviously, that's bad and wrong.
If the English were less stingy, none of this would be a problem. If everyone tipped 15% on top of the bill, the waiters would be fairly remunerated, and restaurants would have less of an opportunity to steal from their employees' pockets. But, alas, you cannot trust a people who think that it's OK just to round up a £195 bill to £200.
If the service charge is optional, I usually ask the waiter to remove it. I then tip 15% in cash so I know it goes to the waiter and not the company.
We didn't bother querying it, but I did think it a bit cheeky.
All businesses should pay their staff decent wages and tipping should be a reward for excellence.
Service charge should be optional, but having asked for it to be taken off, I know it isn't. I also know that it doesn't necessarily all go to the staff - I've asked that too.
Second time, had a drink with the wife. It was strangely unfriendly.
Third time, went for a few with friends. The service was chaos. Apparently two people hadn't turned up. The bar staff there didn't know what the wine was. They tried to give the person before me half a bottle of wine when they asked for a bottle. Every order took ages. We struggled through. Main thing was that again the manager made no effort to jolly us along or be nice.
Under Adam it was a friendly atmosphere. I just haven't felt very welcome in there since. It might be just me not liking change, but I've basically switched full time to the Dairy now.
Too many places in Britain now seem to think that despite paying handsomely for your meal, you should then pay for the privilege of having it brought to the table courteously. That's the bare minimum that should be done - after all it's not like you can opt out and go get it from the kitchen yourself.
I understand why to Americans the British may look mean, but to us the American system of underpaying staff and expecting tips to make it up is dishonest and disconcerting.
I ate out last night in Chinatown, in a nicer than average restaurant, stuck at the bottom of the bill was SC and an amount stuck on, if you hadn't spotted the little initials and realised what it meant you would have tipped as well and the set up was clearly made to get you to double tip - now that is sneaky.
Back on topic I've only been in the Noble briefly once since change of hands and it seemed as usual, although they'd axed the wife's favourite wine.
@Brodiej - I am American, but I've lived all of my adult life in London. I've bartended and waited tables for six years. I was good at it, and I made a decent living. Like Misscara, I haven't made that kind of money since leaving the industry.
You don't tip the waiter for bringing you the food. Hopefully, the restaurant pays him for that. You tip for the overall service experience. Different people want different types of service. What's good service for one is over-service for another. Some people want to chat to the waiter. Others want to be left alone. A good waiter knows the difference. If you're getting annoyed 'cause the waiter keeps coming up to your table to check on you, that is not good service.
I've never had a bellhop forced on me at a hotel. I always say, 'It's fine. I can carry my own bags,' and they leave me alone. I agree that it's a service that most of us don't need. I do tip when I call reception for something and a bellhop brings it to my room.
In the States, you really should tip 15% for good service, 20% for excellent service. In a bar, $1 per drink is standard. The waiters and bartenders are paid a pittance, sometimes not at all. It's expected that most of their income comes from tips. Waiters pay tax based on their expected earnings. The restaurant thinks you'll tip 15%. They're taxed on that amount, even if you leave 10% or nothing at all. So you really are taking the food out of their (children's) mouths.
@Idoru - The service charge is not always optional. If the bill says 'optional', then they have to remove it. I've never had an issue over it. Then again, I usually say something like, 'Could you please take off the service, and I'll tip you in cash.' No waiter is going to say no. But if it doesn't say 'optional', they may not remove it. It also means that they pay tax on it.
@Kaz - The tronc system is a joke. It varies hugely from one place to another. I've worked at two places where the staff didn't see a penny of the 12.5% service charge, but they did have higher salaries. In another place, the waiters were supposed to get all of their own service charge once a percentage had been deducted for the busboys, but the numbers never added up. I'm much more comfortable handing the waiter a £10 note than adding it to the bill and hoping that it doesn't all end up in the owner's pocket. Back of house staff should be on salaries, not a percentage of the service charge.
I love Cologne beer halls. I love the middle-aged waiters who bring you your beer, tray in one hand, cigarette in the other. I love that they're constantly bringing you more beer, even when you didn't ask for it. Thing is, not everyone likes that type of service. But it's what you get when the waiter doesn't give a damn whether you're happy with your dining experience.
Overall the standard of service in Britain, which now sits nearer America's compulsive tipping than not, is no better or worse than that found in France or Italy where service is included.
Wages are part of the restaurant's costs that should be reflected in the price of your food, not made artificially low so that they rely on people's goodwill to be bumped up.
In France or Italy if the waiter tells enough people to fuck off he'll get fired, if he tells you to fuck off, you tell the manager and point out you aren't paying your full bill.
I get why people who have worked tables etc in America defend the system and tipping, it's because they manage to make quite large sums from it that would probably far outweigh the relatively higher wages in a different culture.
The English aren't cheap or stingy, in my experience most will always leave a 10% or larger tip on top of a food bill and are happy to pay for quality food, wine and service.
However, they also recognise that your local pub asking for a service charge for carrying a snack from the bar to your table is a bit much.
@Papa L - I've never waited tables in the States, just here. And I agree with you about not tipping in a pub for non-existent service. I don't tip the guy who pulls my pint or brings me a portion of chips. I do tip the guy who makes me four different cocktails (unless he makes them wrong, in which case I ask him to make them again). I tip the guy who can recommend a decent bottle of wine based on my preferences, not the guy who pours me a glass of house red.
The English know they're expected to tip at least 10%, but a large proportion do not. Between stingy students ('I'm too poor to tip.' But not too poor to eat out, huh?), mathematically-challenged morons ('That's about 10%, right?' No, that's 6%. Use a calculator, if you're too stupid to move the decimal point.) and general cheap bastards ('Keep the change.' Thanks. I'll put that 23p towards my dream holiday), waiters get screwed over by at least half of the customers.
For the diners, £2 is pocket change. For the waiter, that £20 is the difference between being able to pay the rent and not.
Everyone should have to wait tables at least once in their lives. Not for pocket money, but for a living. Especially restaurant owners and politicians.
In the States, shop staff are paid at least the minimum wage. Waiters and bartenders are not. I agree with you that it doesn't always make sense that one group gets tips and the other doesn't. What about cabbies and hair dressers? Why do they get tips?
I've had some very positive shopping experiences with helpful, knowledgeable shop staff. But the vast majority are no better than the self checkout tills. Yesterday, I asked a man at Home Base if they sold individual precision files. I showed him a box containing six of them. They were clearly labeled 'files'. He showed me a wall full of screwdrivers. I had to explain to him the difference between a file and a screwdriver. I don't think this man deserved a tip. Frankly, he doesn't really deserve to keep his job.
I'd like to think that shops that employ expert staff pay them a decent wage. Obviously, that's often not the case. I don't know the solution to that.
It was quite sweet really, I explained they were a vegetable and then left it.
To dangerously re-enter the tips debate.
I think if we can establish anything it is that Americans don't tip because they are more generous than the rest of the world, they do it because they think they have to and that is how their (mad) system works.
Now you could argue that a culture that doesn't have to tip, but still regularly does is actually more generous.
The exception to any discussion has to be large group split bills, where a special rule of carnage operates - as Dorothy illustrates.
Speaking of madness, are the Noble still operating their insane have to spend £20 to use a card policy?
I don’t understand how some people can moan about the lousy service while at the same time insist they don’t have to tip or complain when a mandatory service charge is imposed. You get what you pay for.
We had a student doing a two-week work placement at my job recently. At lunch one day she mentioned that in addition to her studies she waited tables at a pub, taking orders, delivering food, clearing tables, on the weekend for extra money and that after a full shift she might earn an extra £10 in tips…only £10 for a full shift! I was shocked. I seriously doubt her customers were leaving 10%.
@Ali – yes I always tip my barber. For a £9 haircut I give my barber an extra £2-2.50.
It makes everyone feel better and ups the vibe. Shame they're supposed to be taxed, but I guess it has to be that way.