Primary School nightmare

janez · January 2012

Hmm, we are talking about schools, not about upbringing in general, don't we? And it is knowledge what I am sending the child to school for. For all the rest - vision, navigation, life success - I have home as determinant, and we are not talking about that.<div><br></div><div><br></div>

boxrunner · January 2012

What's OTT for me is when people put words into my mouth or make crass statements without thoughtful explanation or justification:<br><br>1. I didn't call SG a ghetto. If that's how you read it, try reading it again. Slowly.<br>2. There's a difference between not valuing academic achievement, valuing it as only one part of a broad upbringing and *only* valuing academic achievement. If you don't understand, just ask.<br>3. " Neither city, nor community, nor country need doctors and engineers." What are you talking about?<br>

boxrunner · January 2012

You're not seriously suggesting that the only reason you send your child to school is for knowledge, are you?<br><br>There are 2 massive problems with that:<br><br>1. Children will learn a whole range of things at school, including life skills like socialising with peers and other age groups, etc. Your child will pick-up these things from the places they are regularly exposed to, not just from home.<br>2. If you're solely dependent on your child learning knowledge from school, as opposed to school being just one of the palces they pick-up knowledge from, then there's a lot you could be doing, but are not doing to help your child. It's not the school's responsibility to be the sole dissemintator of knowledge for your child. You also have that responsibility. Failing to do so will not help your child's academic progress, never mind anything else.<br>

janez · January 2012

Where did you read out that I <i>only </i>academic achievements? Can you read that bit <i>slowly</i> to me? Then you can say about "so different paradigm", no problem.<div><br></div><div>I am challenging your statement that "<span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">you'll get a </span><em style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-image: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: oblique; font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; vertical-align: baseline; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">better</em><span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "> education because not only will your kids do well academically</span>" - well, they won't, unless I will be doing the job which can be done by school. </div><div><br></div><div>Of course, parents who value education usually make sure that children have the same belief. But mere belief is not enough. Many parents of pre-school kids do not take schools seriously, and wide unschooling movement supports them. But schools do make difference, and the largest impact is exactly in secondary schools. There were interesting results of comparison of the top 10% primary school leavers going to private and state schools. So, all bright kids, keeping the same parents. Substantially larger share of them stayed in top 10 by GCSEs time in privates, rather than in state schools (and as I told before, similar comparison of top 10 at GSCEs to top 10 at A-levels did not give any favour for privates). </div>

gardener-joe · January 2012

zzzzzzz...

Siolae · January 2012

<P>@Janez ; I can assure you the figures I gave you are the most accurate. Raiseonline is the education department's report and is done on every school in the country. This is the definitive measurement. The school website may not have been updated since the first tranche of results came out in August. Schools then request re-marks for students who were awarded D but are only a few marks off a C. This is the most likely reason for the discrepancy. </P> <P>With regard to your comment that the people commenting on this thread don't know what they are talking about because they are not parents allow me to respond. I am a parent of a child in KS2 at an Islington primary school, of which I am also a governor. In addition I work in education. Therefore I think I am fairly well qualified to know what I am talking about.</P> <P>You also said "<FONT face=Arial>BTW, HF is doing much better that MC, because of substantially higher % of the poor." I assume what you mean is that Highbury Fields is doing better because it has much lower deprivation indicators? If that is what you were saying I would be interested to know where your evidence for that comes from because the statistics do not bear that out. The only measure of poverty used is the free school meals statistic and the schools are comparable. Perhaps you are talking about anecdotal evidence and therin lies the problem.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial>It is ridiculous to suggest that secondary schools are only interested in the C-D borderline because this is not the only measurement schools are judged by. Schools are judged by the progress each child makes from KS2 to KS4. A secondary school which succeeds in getting a high percentage over the C-D border but at the same time drops the percentage of A* As (as predicted by each child's KS2 results) automatically triggers a warning to Ofsted and is one of the factors in triggering an inspection. This is the purpose of raiseonline. Another measure is the performance of gifted and talented students: who are identified centrally through CATS scores.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial>The idea that bright motivated middle class kids cannot thrive in these schools is just not born out by the evidence, unless you are saying the children who came out with the top results in these schools succeeded <EM>despite</EM> the schools input. It is clear that deprivation has an impact on education outcomes and that our local schools are hugely successful in countering this but that is <EM>not</EM> at the expense of less deprived children.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial>The single biggest factor for successful outcomes in education (as born out by research) is behaviour in the classroom. The second is the use of assessment for learning pedagogy and practice. The fact that some of our local schools are so successful, given their intake, is precisely because of these factors. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial>As I said, in my own anecdotal experience middle class parents' anxiety about local comps is not necessarily about results, unless the schools are massively below the national average (which most of Islington's are not), but about who their kid is mixing with and the influences they may come under and about a desire to abdicate responsiblilty for their teenager to the school. It is always easier to blame the school than be a strong parent.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </P>

janez · January 2012

1. Have a look at unschoolers' forums, their children have not less but sometimes much, much more social connections than school kids. However, social connections is not an argument to this or that type of school, unless there happening something really unhealthy like bullying, which we are not discussing there.<div><br></div><div>2. I prefer school as "one of places where knowledge is given" which actually <i>do</i> give knowledge at A-A* level, not at foundation tier. Exactly because I have loads of other things to do with the child at home.</div>

boxrunner · January 2012

@janez<;br><br>You asked "Where did you read out that I <i>only </i>academic achievements? Can you read that bit <i>slowly</i> to me? ". Happy to help. You wrote "And it is knowledge what I am sending the child to school for" Ergo if the child does poorly academically, you presumably will discount any other benefits that child has gained from the school.<br><br><br>"I am challenging your statement that "<span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">you'll get a </span><em style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-image: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-style: oblique; font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; vertical-align: baseline; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">better</em><span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> education because not only will your kids do well academically</span>" - well, they won't, unless I will be doing the job which can be done by school. " I guess it depends what you mean by education. If you are limiting it to the very narrow field of academic success, then we are talking different paradigms. I disagree with your assertion that it's simply down to the school whether your child does well academically. It isn't. You are also responsible. You can choose to ignore that responsibility, do it separately from the school, or engage with the school, but you can't expect the school to do everything for your child on your behalf (without your support), which it sounds like is exactly what you do expect.<br><br>

miss annie · January 2012

Gosh I feel sorry for kids these days.

andy · January 2012

I just checked. At my old secondary school, the number of kids getting 5 a-c gcse's was 42%. It was probably a bit higher when I was there, but still well below the numbers we're talking about above. I turned out ok, with a good university education. Also, someone from my secondary is now an MP. So it's not exactly a death sentence to go to a crap school.

Detritus · January 2012

miss annie · January 2012

<p>More or less the same here, ask David. We also turned out one of England's most capped rugby players and a Premier League footballer.</p><p>My chap went to a decent school that is now an outstanding academy and they produced Helen Fielding (Bridget Jones) and the Yorkshire Ripper. </p>

Ali · January 2012

But are you prepared to take that risk for your kids ?<div><br></div><div>Is there anyone on here who actually has kids at one of the secondary schools who can give us a view ?</div>

miss annie · January 2012

I don't have kids Ali, so I can't say what others should do, but I'd like to think that if I did I would send them to a local school and get as involved as possible in the school's activities. I'm a big believer in contributing to the community, volunteering etc. I don't believe that it's right to just take and give nothing back in area of life.

rainbow_carnage · January 2012

The more I read this thread, the clearer it becomes that most of you haven't been inside a secondary school in decades. It's not enough to go to a parent-teacher meeting. You have to actually spend time in a classroom.<br><br>I don't have kids, so all of my experience comes from teaching. I don't know the schools in this area, but I know three in Hackney, two of which are high-ranking academies. In one, the teachers constantly shout at the pupils. Constantly. I sat in on an assembly where the head made the students stand up and sit down for 20 minutes because they wouldn't stop talking. In another, no one ever shouts, but the kids walk around on pins and needles. It's like being in military school. The third is more relaxed. It's an all-girls school. The level of bullying is shocking. The teachers don't seem to care. One male teacher in his 30s shamelessly flirts with 14-year-old girls.<br><br>Like any self-respecting lefty, I oppose private education. But I dare you to spend a day at a local secondary school before you commit to sending Jr there. Sit in the back of the class and watch as a 13-year-old lies down on the floor, grabs the teachers ankles and refuses to let go (happened to me). Watch as another child shoves a teacher, who is half his size, into the wall (happened to a friend). Watch an emotionally-troubled 12-year-old stand on a desk and scream at the top of his lungs (happened twice). Do you really want to send your kids to this school? Many do. The school is hugely oversubscribed.<br>

Siolae · January 2012

@rainbow_carnage. As I said, I work in education. I spend my work life in classrooms. There are several teachers involved in this forum. Some of the people who have posted on this thread are teachers. I absolutely acknowledge that what you describe can happen, and I have seen it happen, however I can categorically state that this is NOT what the three schools I have mentioned are like and they are all "local secondary schools". I have been in them. They are calm, the staff care deeply about the children. The children report that they feel safe. Issues arise in all schools. Whether they are dealt with or not depends on the leadership of the school.

janez · January 2012

<p class="MsoNormal">@Siolae<;/p> <p class="MsoNormal">1. No problem, I am ok to generously grant 54% instead of 53%. For year-to-year performance comparison it may mean a lot, but when you are comparing schools… sorry, with all due respect, it does not qualify for “all great”. </p> <p class="MsoNormal">2. It is visible that you are <i>in</i> the topic, not a child-free class warrior, because you at least know the local schools. And you are talking about the schools, not about my perceived place (their misjudgings are hilarious) in the social grid. Thank you for that. <span style="font-family: Wingdings;mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-char-type: symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:Wingdings">J</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal">3. About FH I mean exactly what I say – they are better than MC because having higher % of FSM children (51% in HF against 45% in MC) they produce better GSCE results. Stepping on speculative stone, I might suggest that having specialisation on science, they may slightly scare off parents of less academically promising children, but it is just a pure suggestion.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">4. On the schools’ priorities and thriving less deprived children. Schools may have multiple priorities, but some of them will be prevailing. When I am talking about Y10 adding fractions I am merely reporting on the things my child doing at maths at the moment. 15yo adding fractions. If it is not dumbing down the higher tier for the sake of the foundation, than what is it? I asked this question in moderate terms to the maths teacher at the parents meeting. The answer was “We are ensuring that they are confident with basics”. What can be added to that?</p> <p class="MsoNormal">5. And it is not only parents’ anxiety, it is the child’s disappointment. It is the child who started to ask me what the feck we moved in London for, losing in the education quality. Despite the sneering from in-laws, I am quite relaxed about “sort of people you rub shoulder with” – and you may see that only my opponents in the tread are appealing to that idea. But it is exactly the behaviour in the class what my child is complaining about. </p>

janez · January 2012

<span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi; mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">@box runner: Cool, you are taking freedom to put the word “only” in my mouth. As I already told you, you are pitying and talking to your own assumptions, sorry. </span>

janez · January 2012

<span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi; mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">@andy: My great-great aunt fell off of the 27-meter bridge, survived, married the guy who rescued her, had 6 children with him and died aged 87. That does not make falling from a 27-meter high bridge a safe thing to do.</span>

janez · January 2012

@Siolae: just in case, the behavior problems my kid is complaining about are NOT the the extent of shoving teachers against walls as Carnage saying about.

andy · January 2012

@janez If your anecdote was true (and it isn't) it would illustrate my point, not yours. My point was that it is not necessarily the case that attending a difficult school ruins your life. It's also metre and behaviour. I was taught that at school.

Bridget J · January 2012

Rainbow Carnage sad but true - your insights are everyday occurance. I went to school in Crouch End and I totally get what you are saying. Its so true of my experience as a pupil in an average/below average comp. locally. Im doing fine now but I totally hate those years in that shitty comp. Depressing and quite common, my mum is a teacher in Hackney and I have friends who are teachers and I hear this a lot.<div><br></div><div>Poor Janez give her/him a break!</div><div><br></div><div>Not sure what the answer is, I have a friend who has put her son in a local school and its very difficult for lots of reasons. I wont speak about it here as I will probably get shot down but suffice to say I wouldnt do it.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div>

janez · January 2012

@andy. You answer illustrates the reason why there is an absence of secondary school parents in the thread - "not necessarily ruins your life" is not how schools are chosen.

andy · January 2012

I'm pretty sure I was making a different and more modest point than that, which I would expand on if I thought making it would make the slightest difference to your way of thinking.

checkski · January 2012

Yes. I give up as well.

boxrunner · January 2012

@andy It's not so much the fact that janez won't change their thinking that causes me to give up. After all, what's the likelihood that any of us would change ours? (Though I would like to think I'm open to hear other peoples points of view.) It's the incoherence of the argument post after post and overstating/misinterpreting of logic that means I'm done.<br>

Jo Homan · January 2012

Just going back to local primaries. Pooles Park is similar-ish to Parkwood, but it's 2 or 3 form entry, so has that big school feel to it. I've spent quite a lot of time working there with one of the part time teachers and parents, Sophia, on the cob oven they have in the playground. Sophia does a wonderful job at teaching gardening skills, and respect for and curiosity about, the environment. Children take responsibility for watering the indoor plants (often neglected in other school) and for looking after the chickens - including taking the day's eggs to the kitchen. They have a huge solar array on the roof and have won awards as an eco school. I do prefer Parkwood though, even though it's not as green as Pooles Park. It has a better atmosphere because of the smaller size and building design - although sometimes the classrooms feel too small.<br><br>

janez · January 2012

@andy Your point is quite clear and does not need further explanations. I am not challenging it, correct, a poor school is not the end of the world, I am just pointing out that usually parents want something more for their children than "not a death sentence". Why are you upset and what difference of thinking you would like to make?<div><br></div><div>@chekski, in my school I was taught that debate is considered failed at the moment when you stop talking about the subject and start talking about your opponent's personality. I was pleased to see you doing so.</div><div><br></div><div>@box runner: I lost hope about sensible conversation at the very beginning, when you mightly <i>ergoed</i> that "<span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; ">it is a pity of janez opts out and their kids don't integrate". You were reading out from my words whatever you wanted and argued your own ideas. I do not have any particular feelings about that, that happens pretty often. </span></div>

janez · January 2012

@Jo: I heard positive things about Joan of Arc school. Nothing particular I can tell about at the moment, but I can ask when I see those parents.

Siolae · January 2012

<P>Also giving up due to lack of logic and general incoherence. Seems little point in carrying on the debate.</P>

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