Stroud Green Olive Oil - end of term report

krappyrubsnif · October 2013

@Brodiej and @miss annie - I really welcome your thoughts and it's useful to have some discussion.<br><br>On the question of the name, yes, I did play around with different ideas. I considered Crouch End Olive Oil, and why not also Muswell Hill Olive Oil, Stoke Newington Olive Oil, Finchley Olive Oil?<br><br>As it happens, I've have a top class advisor on this - someone in the branding/labelling business who is actually a professional label designer for the likes of Heinz etc - and who is also very generous with his time. He designed and drew up the artwork for my label, all for free. (And a Stroud Greener to boot - at least until recently - he was, in fact, a regular contributor to this forum, though he's now moved out.)<br><br>He has advised against 'Crouch End Olive Oil' and the other variants. Why? I would have to seek clarification from him for the exact argument, but my recollection is that from a branding perspective 'Stroud Green Olive Oil' works, on several levels - it's a bit of a joke, it's improbable, the name is 'green', it's inner-city but not a well-known or pretentious place (like Hampstead), it's an area with loyal fans and known to the cognoscenti, there's potentially an (admittedly small) core local following, with capacity to expand if the 'brand' ever became successful. Very importantly, it is NOT generic Italian 'Tuscan Olive Oil' with a fake Italian name and a picture of olive trees, blue skies, peasants and Italian flags. On all these counts it scores high on the 'Eh?' factor, and comes across as distinctive, different and, in fact, authentic.....<br><br>I did lobby for Crouch End Olive Oil as an additional selling point but my friend advised against it because it would dilute the brand. <br><br>Two other factors - I have no connection with Crouch End, so to use that name would be slightly misleading and rather lame. Also, I do think that people in Crouch End are less likely to see the joke implicit in 'Stroud Green Olive Oil'. 'Crouch End Olive Oil'? Yeah! Crouch End is exactly the kind of upper middle class place you would EXPECT to have extra virgin olive oil by the gallon in the kitchens and an olive oil named after it - there's no double take. People would just see it as an attempt to exploit the name. Which it would be.<br><br>In fact my whole point is the notion that (as in the Mediterranean) good quality olive oil is everybody's right, not something expensive and la-di-da but something for everybody. EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL FOR THE MASSES - that's what I say!<br><br>Oh - and yes, I do have an interview and picture story lined up with the Ham and High in a couple of week's time. As you say miss annie, tweets, blogs, the Guardian food pages, Olive Magazine, Jamie Oliver and the soap opera can only follow.<br><br>Your thoughts?<br><br><br><br>

vetski · October 2013

I like it as SGOO. It has over-and-undertones of being 'that wonderful little place, so unspoiled, and so much cheaper/less touristy than Tuscany, darling'. We're all Abruzzanos! (Though have you seen the price of Montepulciano recently? Bloody hell.)

Brodiej · October 2013

@Krappy. I think i just don't really know what the core motivations behind the project are. Why are you bringing back olive oil from italy and trying to sell it to people in the area. Thats a question for you to confirm rather than me questioning what you're doing. Is it because its fun, its a bi-product of your property in italy and you think its really good? Or is it because you think you can make some cash out of it? Ultimately, i guess the capacity of the olive grove means you'll never make enough to get rich, so is it more about doing something that you're passionate about that you want others to experience? Thats the impression i get with regards to tasting evenings, stalls at markets etc. If so, then the Crouch End proposal was just about giving you the means to shift more of it. <div><br></div><div>Regardless of the negatives associated with it that you outlined, changing the name to reflect a much larger consumer group (CE is bigger than SG) and derived marketing opportunities would allow you to sell more in a short term hit. People of CE are more likely to buy olive oil. More people in CE are available to buy olive oil. People in general like the novelty of something reflecting their personal circumstance....in this case where they live...Crouch End. Coke did it too by putting names on their packaging for 6 months. Complete marketing garbage, but it made people select bottles in stores with their name on it....and they sold more.<div><br></div><div>I've confidence in the CE plan and i think your friend is wrong on that front. His/her comments reflect the view of someone selling a brand to a supermarket rather than someone selling to people on their doorstep. All the comments reflect brand building and creation rather than actual selling. Building a brand is an expensive business and in my view not necessarily the right tactic in your case. The brand can come later, you just want people to try it, like it, and buy it again.....<div><br></div><div>But, SGOO is your name so we'll leave that argument behind. </div><div><br></div><div>As a starting point, if the stuff is really good, i'll believe you based on your story and passion. You don't need a label for that. Sell it to me in a big enough container (10-20L) that makes you a profit, gives me some value and find 20 people like me and you're away!</div></div><div><br></div><div>Krappy, ultimately i'm very jealous of what you're doing. In my lifetime, its something i'd like to be able to do. Regardless of whether you get a big customer base etc the idea of growing olives in italy, harvesting them, creating your own oil, using it at home......wonderful. Keep it up.</div></div>

krappyrubsnif · October 2013

@Brodiej Basically I'm just an idiot who gets enthusiasms and does stuff I stumble into and feel passionate about, for not much other reason. It's not for the money. I like knowing about stuff. I like that this foodstuff is real, very very old, and not much appreciated in this crap modern plastic prepackaged world. I feel sorry for my Italian friends and neighbours in their smallholdings busting their guts to make it when they might as well throw it away, for all the profit it makes them. I like the idea of sticking two fingers to the dirty commerce-driven agribusinesses and supermarkets that are devaluing a beautiful product. I quite like being familiar with something special and unusual. And I'm crap at anything else. I suppose my other motivation - for now - is that this is something new to me, I've never ever tried making or selling or marketing anything in my life before - it's a completely new experience and a learning curve and I like that. It feels a bit like being on The Apprentice or Dragons Den, I can make a fool of myself or I can prove myself and then move on. I'll probably change my mind completely when I find I've completely f****d up and lost a ton of money. I might not do it again next year. Meanwhile it's interesting to figure out how the business works - unit prices, profit and loss, fixed costs and sourcing, marketing, selling. I had no idea so much was involved. Jeez! It's a real insight into how the world works. Most of all though it tastes good. QED

Papa · October 2013

Krappy - I'd be very interested in buying a bigger bottle, say 1 litre if it could be had for a decent price direct.<br><br>I enjoyed my Stroud Green Olive Oil before but reckon I shied away from using it as I was worried I'd run it out really quickly. A larger bottle would have encouraged more use and a potential repeat purchase.<br><br>You should send Giles Coren a bottle.<br>

krappyrubsnif · October 2013

@BrodieJ ; Now that I know my overall costs I've sat down again with a calculator, and I reckon that to make a very modest little return of say ten grand over a year, I'd need to sell around 275 small and 150 large bottles a month through shops. Shops take a 40 per cent mark up. Selling direct door to door, it would need to be around 150 small bottles and 85 large.<br><br>I don't think there is the remotest chance of doing that. And obviously just for a bit of pocket money. To be honest I don't understand how anybody makes any money in business at all. I think I'll just stick with journalism where I can make no money at all by hanging out on the Internet all day pretending to work, swapping jokes on Facebook with equally indigent friends and writing emails that nobody has time to read. At least I can earn a crust teaching students (ie showing off in front of a bunch of kids). The good days are over.<br><br>Your advice has been very useful and to the point actually - thanks mate.<br>

krappyrubsnif · October 2013

@Papa L - yes and yes. I've just ordered a hundred empty 500ml bottles and one's yours if you want it. (When full, obviously.) Dunno about Giles Coren but my media strategy is definitely cranking up. I will be sending one to the Guardian baker Dan Lepard again this year.<br><br>Will investigate a price for 1 litre bottles - is this the way forward, I ask myself? I imagine it would have to be quite pricey, say £14. I'll crunch the numbers.<br><br>Unfortunately glass bottles of liquid are expensive to post and difficult to distribute any other way - not going to be an easy ride (see posting above). <br>

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Brodiej · October 2013

Hi Krappy, glad its been helpful. I've just had a look at the numbers and based on what you've said and assuming you produce 1725 litres once a year, you'd be turning a 71% gross margin, 31% net margin after you've paid the shops....no VAT, which is good news. That tells me you've got plenty on bunce to play with if you change your strategy a little bit and bin off the shops. £10k doesn't sound that modest to me, but i guess it depends on what you're used to. If you were willing to take a hit there, and sell directly to people then you'd find it changed things a bit. Why not also bring back a smaller container from Italy, say 1000L which would relieve the sales volume pressure a bit. Why not invest in a few hundred quids worth of flyers and go door drop everyone......your story, your website, how to buy, details of free tastings etc. It'd be much more interesting than getting something about cabs. Once again, think about selling more to less, you have a very specific target and they're not great in number......get them to take a bit more. 50 people buying 20L would mean you didn't get left with anything. You could offer a refill service or a swap system like they do with calor gas bottles. What about giving free oil to some of the restaurants so that you can promote the product via the menus?<div><br></div><div>Keep your enthusiasm. Just take your time to think through all your options.<br><div><br></div></div>

miss annie · November 2013

@Kreuzkav, you and Stella should go to the dinner together. I think you'd get along famously, and you'd have the conversation starter of both having lived in Germany.

krappyrubsnif · November 2013

Happy to provide a dating and introductions agency 'for the extra virgin in you.'. Or a conciliation service 'Oil on Troubled Waters'.<br><br>I have just heard from a friend who makes his own Muswell Hill Red Wine Vinegar. There could be some traction here.<br><br>@BrodieJ it seems to me the main problem with home delivery is there is no incentive for anyone to use it if the local shops are also selling it. People would much rather pick up a bottle when they're out shopping (even if it's 50p more) than go to the trouble of filling in a form, possibly waiting in and having the right money....... So drop the shops altogether? Make it MUCH more expensive in the shops? Or HUGELY discount home delivery? Unfortunately I think I need those shop displays.<br><br>Get out of that one...<br><br>I like the idea of the bottle exchange though.<br><br><br>

vetski · November 2013

You've already started the bottle exchange/refill service - I'm sure I remember appearing at your front door during the summer with a couple of empties & leaving with them full! Bigger bottles definitely better - as Papa L says I find myself using it very sparingly because I'm afraid to run out. Have you considered metal containers rather than glass bottles? Considerably lighter, but I have no idea if they'd be more expensive to source.

[Deleted User] · November 2013

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krappyrubsnif · November 2013

Wrestling - for some reason this idea rather frightens me Misscara. Definitely a leap of the imagination too far.<br><br>I'll look into bijou little tins.<br><br>It's all coming together - the bottles and the labels have just arrived today. All we need now is the damn oil.<br>

Brodiej · November 2013

<P>Krappy, the whole point of selling in large units is to reduce the opportunity for someone to buy their OO from the shops. 20L represents 80 purchasing opportunities of a 0.25L, 40 for a 0.5L. If they keeping running out, they go to the shop where they could buy anything probably including some of the mass produced stuff you hate. Secure that sale by ensuring they don't need to buy it for a while. The value of home delivery/collection comes from people not having to lug anything bigger than 1L home from a shop....which is a pain.</P> <P>You don't need to completely take away the retail side of things, just don't have it as your focus. Having it in the shop develops your brand, and it can still give you some profit.</P> <P>Remember you're selling to people who value olive oil quality rather than convenience. They're different customers. All you have to do is make their transition to a new supply method stack up in terms of value and positive experience. </P>

Idoru · November 2013

krappy, I can provide you with a list of people I'd pay handsomely to watch wrestling in oil if that would help.<br><br>More seriously, I like the name. I like the fact it reflects where you live so kinda reflects the product's origins. Changing it to Crouch End would dilute that. And really, if Crouch End why not Mayfair? Loads more people have heard of that, despite what the Crouch Enders might like us to think. <br><br>To reiterate something miss annie said further back, sending out free samples to food bloggers and magazines will almost guarantee you coverage. Anyone who sends me freebies gets in the magazine. <br>

Papa · November 2013

Krappy <br><br>Send it to Giles Coren with a note saying it comes from up the road from Season and the new branch of E Mono. He likes both and I reckon he's the kind of chap you'd be in with a good shot of giving it a namecheck.<br><br>Selling direct with an internet purchase facility is the way forward. You may be interested to take a look at this <a href="http://beershopstalbans.com/">Beer Shop St Albans</a>, which a couple of friends of my brothers have set up. <br><br>They've moved from weekend market stalls to setting up their own shop. Cask and high quality craft ales to your door, but limited delivery area.<br><br><br>

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barnesbq · November 2013

<span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">"His/her comments reflect the view of someone selling a brand to a supermarket rather than someone selling to people on their doorstep. All the comments reflect brand building and creation rather than actual selling. Building a brand is an expensive business and in my view not necessarily the right tactic in your case. The brand can come later, you just want people to try it, like it, and buy it again....."</span><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Interesting comment. But I disagree entirely. I worked with krappy on the brand name (then I designed the label) for the very purpose of getting some attention and interest in order to drive sales. Do you honestly think you can attract people to try an olive oil they never knew they wanted simply by talking about it and showing them a blank bottle? It may work on a small scale of one-to-one selling, but pretty quickly, you will need to do something more than that if it becomes popular. 'have you tried that oil from the local guy who brings it back from Abruzzo?' vs "have you tried 'Stroud Green Olive Oil?"</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Which one of those two sentences would make you prick your ears up and ask some questions?</span></div><div><font face="lucida grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, tahoma, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 18px;">Branding works.</span></font></div><div><font face="lucida grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, tahoma, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 18px;">It has done for thousands of years.</span></font></div><div><font face="lucida grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, tahoma, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 18px;">Aztecs putting honey into jars. One of them did it and sold lots. So other people started doing it and also started selling some. Original guy thought. "how do I make my honey look better than theirs to get my sales back up?' so he painted a smiling bee on the pots and lo and behold branding was born. I totally just made that up, but do you get my point?</span></font></div><div><font face="lucida grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, tahoma, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 18px;">You sound so cynical with your comments!</span></font></div><div><font face="lucida grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, tahoma, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 18px;">You can't appeal to everyone with a brand, but you can decide on your target audience and brand something that you hope will appeal to them. Once they have been attracted by the flower, they will decide for themselves if they like the nectar. </span></font></div><div><font face="lucida grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, tahoma, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="lucida grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, tahoma, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 18px;">I am pleased that Krappy is happy with the direction, and if he ever wanted to change it I would offer to help again.</span></font></div><div><font face="lucida grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, tahoma, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="lucida grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, tahoma, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 18px;">All the best of luck!!</span></font></div><div><font face="lucida grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, tahoma, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 18px;"><br></span></font></div>

Brodiej · November 2013

@BarnesBQ. You're not wrong, I don't disagree with what you've put as a general principle. My interpretation of Krappy's comments was that he isn't selling enough olive oil using his current model. You can attempt to address that through the brand, or you can address it through your distribution, or a mix of both. My approach is a bit cruder and a short term fix and reflects the fact that one shipment per year comes from Italy and he tries his best to shift it. My view was that that it isn't proving as easy as perhaps he thought it might be, especially since he said he couldn't see how he could make any money, or even that he could lose a bunch too. Quite worrying. <div><br></div><div>I think the brand works if Krappy got a listing in Sainsburys and Tesco's Stroud Green Road and it sat next to Filippo Berio. He gets the volume from mass target audience, who see the differentiation and its relevant to them. As it stands he has to make do with a few independent retailers who aren't really where he can get decent success. So something has to change, or he ploughs more cash into promoting the brand....which i don't think is a good idea.</div><div><br></div><div>Agency/marketing people (i was one, now i'm a buyer) always disagree with one another. It's par for the course. Ultimately its about views on how to sell to sell more, which always differ depending on what your motivations are. If it were your own cash, how much would you invest in SGOO the brand to get it to the next level? Where do you see Krappy shifting 2000 litres of Olive Oil in the next 12 months? I think thats the killer question. <br><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>

krappyrubsnif · November 2013

Just to let you all know that Max and I have taken 27 bookings for the tasting and dinner on November 27th - so there are only around ten places left. <a href="http://stroudgreenoliveoil.blogspot.co.uk/p/blog-page_7.html">Get your extra virginity here!</a><br><br>I haven't had a *huge* response to the pre-order-at-a-discount, free-home-delivery, or the buy-ten-get-one-free offers - about 20 litres pre-ordered so far I think. Nevertheless, I'll make sure there is enough to meet likely demand. The local shops are crying out for it, so I assume most people would prefer to buy it in-store. I'll be harvesting our own olives in around a week, and sampling my neighbours' oil at the same time.<br><br>Thanks Brodiej, I've been away - will keep strategy under review!<br>

dion · November 2013

@krappyrubsnif - I pretty much second everything that brodiej says, solid, practical advice (not cynical, just pragmatic).

krappyrubsnif · November 2013

Max and I are firming up arrangements for the <i>People's Olive Oil</i> tasting at Il Piccolo Diavolo on Nov 25th. We have a cunning plan - this is how it will work. <br><br>We expect at least 30 people - the restaurant will be full. On arrival, after being shown to your table you'll be spirited off straight away to a 'tasting table' where people can try different oils and learn about olive oil in small groups, while Max prepares your food order. We'll do this because it's best to taste oil with a clean palate. You can keep the tasting samples and refills will be available, and there will be a glass of chilled prosecco back at your place. I'll repeat the intro as many times as necessary and no-one will miss out.<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div>Every guest will receive a complimentary 25cl flask of SGOO and there will be Max's home made foccacia and ciabatta for dipping (though we will not be dipping fo the tasting itself....).<br><br>You can ask Max and I as many questions as you like and I'll produce a little set of basic information sheets about extra virgin oil, tasting, diet and health. (I am not a sommelier but I can share what I've learned). And there will be a little quiz or tasting sheet where you can rate your own taste impressions - we'll see which oil wins. Overall it will be a fun and practical evening and NOT a pretentious one, and everyone will learn something new and hopefully interesting - and have a nice meal. Bottles of my own super-fresh extra virgin olive oil will of course be for sale or to order at the discount on the evening.<br><br>There are still about ten places left.<br><br>I need to ask everybody to state a time of arrival so that Max can space out the cooking in his tiny kitchen, so I'll be contacting everybody who has already booked over the next couple of days.<br><br>I'll also be posting information about the evening and what the tasting will involve on the <a href="http://stroudgreenoliveoil.blogspot.co.uk/">Extra Virginity blog</a> later tonight.<br><br>Looking forward to the event.<br>

krappyrubsnif · November 2013

Just to say that I've added 1 litre bottles, 3 litre tins and 5 litre tins to the SGOO home delivery offer. Hooray!<br><br>Pre-order prices: <br><br>1 litre bottle - £11.50<br>3 litre tin - £28.50<br>5 litre tin - £43.00<br><br>If you're thinking of a tin, you'll be able to try before you buy. Usual booking form through http://stroudgreenoliveoil.blogspot.co.uk<br><br>Now I'll shut up and go to the pub. It's Friday.<br>

Brodiej · November 2013

5L tin ordered. Thats the equivalent of <u>20 x 250ml</u> bottles by the way :-)

taff bach · November 2013

Krappster, I'd like to order a 5 liter tin. Does it come with a tap?

krappyrubsnif · November 2013

Taff, no tap but there is a pourer under the the screw cap at the top when you open it<br><br>I'm afraid I can't do home delivery to Criccieth. :-) <br>

krappyrubsnif · November 2013

Folks kindly <a href="http://stroudgreenoliveoil.blogspot.co.uk/p/blog-page.html">use the booking form if possible</a> to ask for oil. To be honest I am getting quite run off my feet with orders now - which is simply fantastic - and don't want to risk losing any. This is all going far better than I'd hoped, you Stroud Greeners are a brilliant lot..<br>

vetski · November 2013

Have ordered mine! I put home delivery but if you're swamped I'm quite happy to nip round.

andy · November 2013

KRS - Are the 5L bottles your stuff too? I didn't quite follow it from the order page? I thinking of dropping a big order, but I'm all about the authenticity

<div><br><div><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: Molengo, 'Trebuchet MS', Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(255, 251, 239);">Please tick boxes to indicate your choice. 250ml and 500ml SG Olive Oil are oil guaranteed to be from the trees of a comune neighbouring Casa della Meridiana in the Aventino valley, Abruzzo. (Normal prices £5 and £8.50.) SG Oil 'Special Reserve' is oil guaranteed direct from the trees of Casa della Meridiana - our personal olive grove. </span></div></div>

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Stroud Green Olive Oil - end of term report

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