Long term rental

andy · November 2013

@miss Annie - the link I posted is a briefing note for MPs of all parties, written by the House of Commons research library. The government's own impact assessment says that most households in scope have people with disabilities in them. This isn't party political scaremongering, it's the government's own facts.

andy · November 2013

Imagine you rent a car on holiday. You only want a mini. At the airport, there aren't any minis, so the hire firm gives you a Focus. They run the invoice for a Focus, but give you a discount so you only pay what you would have paid for the mini. You drive off to the beach. Halfway through the holiday, the hire firm runs out of cars at the airport. They put out a press release saying that there are no mid-sized cars. They say this is because of all the scroungers who only need minis taking all the Focuses. They then send you an email saying they are removing the discount from your bill, so you have to pay the full Focus rate. You can swap it for a mini if you want, but there weren't any before, and there aren't any now. Back in Britain, pious commentators suggest that they wouldn't be able to sleep at night if they had a Focus and only booked a mini. How, in this situation, would it be renters fault? It wouldn't. It would be on watchdog.

[Deleted User] · November 2013

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andy · November 2013

In a car hire situation, everything from "you suggest" in your answer wouldn't happen though, would it?

JoeV · November 2013

<p class="MsoNormal">Since when is life fair? A lot of this sounds like sour grapes to me: I don’t have a cheap council house so no one should. <o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">It was my understanding that the concept of a 'council house' in this country was based on the premise of providing good, stable housing for all people at a decent cost, not just housing for poor ‘deserving’ people. The government stepped in and built it because private sector wasn’t willing. I don’t have the history here that most of you do but am I wrong? Or was it a case that at one time most people were poor so everyone was pretty much deserving?<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">I would love a council house and would pay market rate for it and then some. It’s the only form of rental housing in this country that provides stability with long-term leases and predictable rent increases. <o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">The way this argument is framed is skewed. People live in mansions and get tax breaks for it. Students live in luxury flats, yet pay little or no council tax for the services they use. Huge corporations receive tax payer subsidies in the name of “Help to Buy”. Where’s the outrage? <o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">There’s a lot of unfairness in the housing sector. If some of you feel that people do not have the right to live in the places that they have called home for decades because they have an extra room than equally: you don’t have a right to live in London Zone 2 or anywhere else if you are unable to afford it so get over it.<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">I don’t like scammers but there are just as many on the top rungs of the ladder then those below.<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">How many of you deserved a free university education?<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">How many of you deserve free health care?<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Yeah, yeah I know you pay taxes and all that but people who have to pay for their education now and may have to pay more for their healthcare later also pay taxes and are watching and counting the many, many years you scammers got something for nothing. Be careful who you compare yourself to, someone will be comparing themselves to you one day and will come calling to collect.<o:p></o:p></p>

rainbow_carnage · November 2013

I don't 'deserve' to live in zone 2. I pay a significant chunk of my salary to do so. (Also, I paid overseas tuition fees, so that wasn't subsidised, either.)<br><br>My issue is not with council housing, it's with housing benefit. The cap for a one-bed flat in Haringey is £250 a week. I have two masters degrees and work full time, but I cannot afford £250 a week. The government has priced me out of the market.<br><br>Maybe it is sour grapes. I'm not happy that I have to pay inflated rent, while my neighbour get to live in a nicer flat, paid for by housing benefit. This is obviously less of an issue for those of you who rent at the higher end of the market, but it certainly is a problem for me.<br>

Stella · November 2013

But how much do you have to live on, rainbow, after deducting all bills. I mean for food, for going out, etc.? It's not judging, it's just comparing. It's probably not all as black and white, you know?<br><br>I suspect the government pays that much because there are hardly any cheaper flats, and this is where the lower rents/higher earnings discussion makes sense. What if the person who's on benefits, living in this 250p/w flat finds a job that isn't paid as much? They either need to move then, too, or still rely on benefits, having just enough money to survive. My guess is, in the current market, the person is stuck in the flat, because it's difficult to find something cheaper. Unless the person is prepared to share or move into a hole. <br><br>Many ads are saying: sorry, no DSS. How is a person, who wants to move from a 250p/w flat into a, say, 160p/w studio when he or she's denied a cheaper flat? Even working folk, like Misscara showed, have difficulties. I'm sure there are plenty of people on benefits, who are actively trying to get a job, wanting to downsize, but they stand no chance.<br>

checkski · November 2013

Well said, JoeV. As happens too often on this site, discussions quickly become vicious, turning on one's fellow human beings, rather than the monsters who (in this case) created the miserable housing situation in the first place; and the reason for the viciousness nearly always turns out to be sour grapes. Sutent is also right: this reactionary discourse is created and fostered by papers like the Daily Mail, who then continue to thrive on it. Give me the Socialist Worker any day, Miss Annie; and I speak as a lefty liberal, not a revolutionary Marxist. At least they attack the right people.

JoeV · November 2013

<p class="MsoNormal">@rainbow. I’m in the same exact position as you are and please don’t think I was singling you out. This is a complex problem and I don’t know what the answer is. It does seem to me that the issue is being deliberately muddied by people who stand to make money out of the situation. <o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">At least you know the difference between housing benefit and council housing. I think a discussion could be had about the amount of housing benefit that is paid out. But why are council tenants being singled out? </p><p class="MsoNormal">As I understand it, a person can live in a Council house and receive no form of housing benefit payment and conversely, a person receiving housing benefit can (and often) live in a privately rented flat. <o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">From what I've read, the bedroom tax only affects those people receiving housing benefit and also living in a council or housing association flat – which to me would mean mostly poor people, possibly old and possibly sick.<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">A person receiving housing benefit and living in a privately rented flat will continue to receive their full housing benefit even if the flat they live in a flat has an extra bedroom.<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">In other words, the central Government will continue to subsidise private landlords but will cut payments to local Councils.<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Please someone correct me if I don’t have that right but it just seems wrong to me.<o:p></o:p></p>

[Deleted User] · November 2013

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checkski · November 2013

Disgusting, greedy, selfish. Stupid. Immature. All words that you use freely, Miss Cara. You often do this: attack aggressively, and then accuse others of starting it.<br>

checkski · November 2013

I first 'met' you when you proposed sweeping away two Tesco street people with the rubbish.<br><br>Vicious, or what?<br>

JoeV · November 2013

@Misscara - I don't think anyone would disagree with your lone pensioner in a massive council house scenario but the bedroom tax / reduction in housing benefit does nothing to address that imbalance, even though it's being sold as doing so.<div><br></div><div>If said pensioner is not receiving housing benefit he can continue to live in that flat without any change in circumstance. </div><div><br></div><div>(and in case any one gets the wrong idea - please don't think I'm a leftie, that's just the most depressing thing ever.)</div>

rainbow_carnage · November 2013

@Stella - I'm not sure what your point is. Of course, it's all relative. We're much better off than someone who works in a shop making £6.50 an hour. We don't ever have to choose between food and heat. We get to go out once in a while and are even trying to save up some money for a deposit. If all we did was work and pay rent, what would be the point of living in London?<br><br>I guess the reason why my (very liberal) friends and I are bitter is that we did what you're supposed to do and have fuck-all to show for it. We went to the top unis and got good degrees (post-grad, as well as undergrad). We got jobs. Really, quite decent jobs. But, unfortunately, these jobs don't pay as much as working in an investment bank.<br><br>So now we're in our 30s. None of us can afford to buy. We're just about paying the rent. Those who are single have to live with other single people because renting on your own is too expensive. And while that's great fun when you're 23, it gets depressing after a decade and a half.<br><br>We'd like to start families, have a couple of children, maybe a dog. Nothing too extravagant. But we can't afford a two-bed flat, or one with a garden. More than that, we can't afford childcare. I make less than what it costs to send two little ones to a nursery.<br><br>I don't really care about the pensioner hiding an extra bedroom. Nor do I care that much about the bankers. I have a friend (who is actually not a banker) who makes in the region of £200k a year. He and I are not looking at the same flats. <br><br>But the person on housing benefit looking for a one-bed flat in Haringey, he's actually making it more difficult for me to get a place. And when people complain that £250 a week is much too low, and that it'll force the poor out of London, I want to punch these people in the face. (Incidentally, these people tend to be homeowners themselves.)<br>

JoeV · November 2013

<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2">@rainbow – I’m of the opinion that it’s absolutely awful to be a renter in this country for reasons I’ve stated in other discussions. But I’m sorry, if you want to buy, I have a feeling that you’d be able to -- just not where you may want to live. <o:p></o:p></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2">You have my sympathy. I’m much older than you and I too have done my best and I also don’t work in a ‘high’ paying industry. I felt I had to choose between saving for a deposit or saving for retirement. I chose to put my money away for retirement. It’s not much (but it’s something) so I don’t know if this was the right decision but there it is. I’m reconciled with the fact that I’ll never own but to be honest, that statement should be amended to I’ll never own in an area that I want to live in, either because I’ll find it difficult to find work and/or I just wouldn’t want to live there.<o:p></o:p></font></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2">That banker making 200K a year would probably like to live in a swish zone 1 neighbourhood, and in the (recent) past on that that salary it could probably be done easily but now even she or he has to settle. <o:p></o:p></font></p> <font face="Arial" size="2">It’s a ripple effect. That person on housing may be contributing to your difficulties but so is that oligarch buying flats in Belgravia and Cheslea to park their money and keeping them empty – done so through offshore companies and tax breaks courtesy of the UK Government at the expense of the taxpayer. </font><div><font face="Arial" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">It's obscene and I just wish more people would focus on it. Small changes in the tax code to make everyone who buys/owns property pay the same (not more) would go along way.</font></div>

Stella · November 2013

"But the person on housing benefit looking for a one-bed flat in Haringey, he's actually making it more difficult for me to get a place." <br><br>How? You said you're looking for a 2-bed flat. You're not even in the same market, unless you're looking for a 1-bed flat, too. And in the latter, you're clearly in advantage, since you're both working. <br><br>I don't think you won't be able to buy. Can't believe there's no chance. I've not looked into the buying schemes, but was told by someone who has bought, that you need to prove that you have a regular income and go from there. As I said, I have no experience with buying, but maybe you could look into it a bit more. <br>

andy · November 2013

<div><i><span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20.796875px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> I have a friend (who is actually not a banker) who makes in the region of £200k a year. He and I are not looking at the same flats.</span><span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20.796875px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> </span></i></div><div><i><span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20.796875px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></i></div><div style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20.796875px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">He is. He's looking at buying the flats you want as buy-to-lets.</span></div><div style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20.796875px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></div><br>

[Deleted User] · November 2013

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ChangN4N6 · November 2013

Chetski you were out of order with that attack on miss c. The poor cow is needlessly attacked and entitled to her views and to enjoy any red (or rosetinted) glass (or spectacles) she chooses . The main point is we all need more money to live in the luxury of the likes of stinkville Lorne Road or we will be in Edmonton by Xmas. So lets all get better paid jobs. Any offers ? Chang

rainbow_carnage · November 2013

@JoeV - Ah, pensions. That's another equally depressing topic. <br><br><i><br>And in the latter, you're clearly in advantage, since you're both working.<br><br></i>@Stella - How on earth do I have the advantage in this situation? I can only pay £230 a week. Even if I could pay more, I may not because the flat isn't worth any more. But a HB tenant doesn't care--it's not his money--as long as it's less than the cap. Plenty of landlords will take HB tenants because they can charge them more.<br><br>And yes, I have looked into every type of buying scheme. Anyone who says that all you need is proof of income is either lying or is the sort of idiot who got an 105% mortgage back in 2008 and was then surprised to find himself in negative equity.<br><br>@andy - Of course, you're right. So now I have to hate even more people. Thanks.<br>

Stella · November 2013

Rainbow it all sounds a tad too bitter to me. It sounds like you're angry at the people who told you to get a good education/degrees to earn good money, but it didn't come true and now you're blaming everyone and their dog for it. <br>I don't think that people on benefits don't care, see my previous comment. And I don't think there are plenty of landlords who take on people on benefits. Again, see previous comment. <br>By the way: if you wouldn't pay more for a flat because it's not worth it, why do you mind if someone on benefits takes the flat? Just curious. <br>

checkski · November 2013

Nice of you to ask me to your social, Miss Cara. When I was younger, evenings in pubs were the norm, as they seem to be for you lot, but it's daytime and coffee shops for me now, at the age of 70. I'm sometimes quite curious to know who you all really are as well, but also enjoy the anonymity, so it's no thanks from me, and have a good time.

emine · November 2013

Council housing is not paid for by taxpayers; the rent councils receive for their housing stock is more than it costs to maintain and I believe the Treasury receives the extra, or at least some of it. So people in council housing, while enjoying security and low rents, are also paying for the rest of us. Hurrah for them. <div><br></div><div>And instead of resenting the people who receive housing benefit, I resent that taxpayers' money subsidises the profits of companies who pay such meagre wages that people need housing benefit in the first place. And a whole system that keeps house/rental prices high: politicians who won't introduce rent controls, parasitic buy-to-let landlords who enjoy numerous tax breaks, land bankers, international investors who for some reason are allowed to buy flats that are never offered on the market to Londoners etc etc. There are numerous villains here, but not the people who receive benefits or those who can't move to some mythical smaller place. If more social housing, small and big, was built, and right to buy (aka the stripping of public assets) was abolished, this would obv be a good thing.</div><div><br></div><div>That's what I'm going to do when I'm dictator anyway. After I bring back Poirot.</div>

Detritus · November 2013

We should have community poor bonfires where we burn the poor and all thier belonging to keep the middle class warm and then install a good kitchen and wine cellar in the spare room that the poor so needlessly hid away. It's obviously the poors fault so if we get rid of them the problem goes away. So shall we say Saturday night at the lake in the park? Bring a benefit scrounger and tourch them (no soggy looking ones they are a bugger to light)

kreuzkav · November 2013

Social housing isn't just for the poor but for people who don't have the income to afford a flat or house suitable for their needs. I couldn't afford a flat in the private sector. I've gone past 40 and don't want to share. I did that most of my adult life. And I agree with other comments on here that say social housing often pays for itself. A social landlord buys a property especially back in the 70s and gets a fair rent and after about 25 years it's paid for itself. Social housing cuts out the greedy middle-man or woman who fleeces their tenants. I agree not all landlords are bad.<div><br></div><div>I see bitterness on here as others have stated from people who probably would like social housing but didn't apply for it. I think everyone should have a decent rent and instead of being bitter campaign for more social housing or rent controls. Decent housing shouldn't be just for the rich. And why don't you decry the rich bankers living in plush parts of Islington or West London who don't deserve the housing they have been able to afford on government subsidies (bail-outs). </div>

Sutent · November 2013

The media/government have a done a wonderful of making people suspicious of the poorest of society. These stereotypes are so ingrained in people heads its really hard to reverse with the truth. If your born poor in this country you are going to be faced with challenging social circumstances, poor access to education, health, housing and no decent employment. Coupled with the fact that we are made to believe that their only ambition is to leach of the state because they are lazy and work shy. The rest of us lucky ones who go to top universities and get good jobs are the hard working ones and the most deserving. The only difference between the two groups is luck.

miss annie · November 2013

I was born poor and worked in creative jobs and a bit of retail all my life, I've still managed to support myself in London for 20 odd years. So was Detritus, he went from a properly rough estate in Yorkshire to Cambridge to study physics. The difference between those who thrive and those who don't is not luck, it's a determination to work hard, use the brain or talents you were blessed with and help yourself. Based on my personal experience, I don't believe that a rocky start is an excuse for anything. I'm sure bankers also think that because they work hard they are the most deserving. Whether a job is good or not is not just about salary, it's whether you enjoy it too. Of course we should all be lavishly rewarded for working hard but not all of us want to do the jobs that pay best. I have never wanted to be a doctor, lawyer or banker, or indeed anything office based. I like faffing about making wizards costumes, or giant tinsel reindeers it doesn't pay all that well but it makes me happy. I don't read the Daily Mail by the way. BBC News 24 for me.

rainbow_carnage · November 2013

@Stella - Wow, really? That's what you got from my post? That I'm angry with the people who encouraged me to get a good eduction?<br><br>@Sutent - I am sorry to spoil your Guardian-inspired view of anyone who disagrees with with you, but I'm afraid I don't fit your stereotype. I'm a first-generation immigrant. I didn't speak a word of English until I was 10. I worked full time while studying to pay the (unsubsidised) tuition fees. During a particularly memorable six-month period, I was working full time, studying full time and had a full-time unpaid internship. And I really don't appreciate you saying that the only difference between me and someone who is even worse off is luck.<br>

Papa · November 2013

@sutent your assertions are not true. This country is full of people for whom hard work and dedication pay off and whatever their background they get praised. <br><br>And that happens even if they are foreign. Right wing papers might have a thing for Eastern European benefit tourists but they also have a love affair with praising Polish builders.<br><br>What this whole argument is about is that there are a lot of people in this country perceived to not be pulling their weight. Some of the accusations may be wrong, but if we're honest we've all met enough of them to know this is not completely wide of the mark.<br><br>The real underlying problem is a property boom allowed to run unchecked by the Blair-Brown government and now being kicked back into life to rescue the economy in the short term by Cameron and Osborne.<br><br>If it wasn't for that, our members on here who are upset that they can't buy or rent a decent place despite working hard, wouldn't actually have a problem - their wages would get them a decent home.<br><br>It's not a class or earnings thing, when it comes to buying or renting a home to live in this hurts those at the top of the tree, the middle and the bottom. Relatively speaking it's really expensive for all.<br><br><br>

Stella · November 2013

No, rainbow. I got from your post that you are angry about not earning enough (in your mind), despite having all those degrees. You had hopes and expectations, but they didn't fulfil. That's what I got from your post. I do understand the frustration, but it's wrong to say that a person on benefits takes away your chances on a flat or even to say that they live better. I'm pretty sure they don't.<br><br>Annie:absolutely agree. I'd rather work in a job that doesn't pay top wages, but makes me happy, than earn top wages and hate my job. A friend works for a bank (in IT to top this off). He hates, absolutely hates his job. Yes, he has a small house in a great location, but I keep wondering if it's all worth it.<br>

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