Raising kids outside London

NorthNineteen · March 2014

@andy <br><br>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19151471<br><br>http://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2013/12/19/how-londons-failing-schools-became-the-best-in-the-world/<br><br>As for the reasons, one of the biggest is people NOT moving out of London. There has been a huge drop in people moving out of London over the last 10 years, the reasons for this aren't entirely understood but the general concensus is the recession reduced mobility for the type of people who would traditionally move from London to home counties and the rest of the UK.<br><br><br>

vetski · March 2014

@Misscara, yes, there are definitely overtones of 'immaculateness'!

Mirandola · March 2014

London does now have the best schools in the country: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationopinion/10475000/London-schools-are-a-UK-education-success-story.html http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/07/london-schools-best-in-country http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/education-21534863 http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8f65f1ce-5be7-11e2-bef7-00144feab49a.html Money quote from the last 'FT analysis of the last 10 years of state school results has revealed that living in the capital gives school children an enormous example'.

minim · March 2014

We've recently moved to N4 with a one-year-old and have no plans to move for the next few decades, which means he'll go to local (non-religous, non-private) schools and I never would have considered anything else or worried about it. I suppose if all local primaries got awful Ofsted reports we might've reconsidered, but as far as satisfactory/good ratings are concerned, I can't say I care much. The feel you get for a school when visiting it matters a lot more. Were schools really that much worse a few years ago that they'd be reason enough to move away? Didn't we all just go to the nearest school when we grew up, and no on really worried about whether it was good enough until they brought in league tables?<div><br><div><div>I grew up near the centre of another capital city and loved it, so have always been a city girl at heart. I can't imagine wanting to live anywhere else at the moment. My partner on the other hand grew up on the outskirts of Manchester and was bored out of his mind until he was old enough to head into town with friends. I've always thought I could either live in a big city or the middle of nowhere, it's the in between suburbia/small town that sounds like hell. (Though having never lived in suburbia it's very much a prejudice, the reality most likely not quite as awful as I imagine.) <br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">We are very fortunate that we were able to afford (and only thanks to family help) to buy a place though, and I definitely understand why people would move out of London if it's the only way of buying. </span><span style="font-size: 10pt;">The insecurity that comes with renting in this country is even more stressful when raising a family - not knowing when the rent will be put up or you'll be given just a few months' notice to move out when your kids are settled in school etc. I don't understand why they can't just bring in new laws making long-term rental contracts possible. In my home country long-term tenancies are the norm, and we lived in the same rented flat for the first half my life. There's not as much pressure to buy as you know you can most likely just rent the same place for as long as you want.</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div>

Donna · March 2014

Minim that is exactly how I feel about suburbia

Detritus · March 2014

I like the fact there are green spaces in London, in LA I was very lucky in living next to pretty much the only lake in the city and only a bus ride away from Griffiths Park. Apart from that it was concrete hell. I miss the moors and knowing that you were the only person around for miles, but I wouldn't move out of London now even if I was offered some nice socks to sweeten the deal.

rainbow_carnage · March 2014

I grew up in the suburbs in upstate New York. I don't remember being bored as a teenager, mainly for the reasons JoeV mentioned. My school offered lots of extracurricular activities. I played basketball, ran cross country, was on the school paper and the science olympiad team. I was rarely home before 6pm.<br><br>I moved to London when I was 20, and I can't imagine living anywhere else. When we have kids, we plan to raise them in London. But, to be honest, that's more for our benefit than the kids'. We want this lifestyle for ourselves. Small children would be better off living somewhere with a bit more space to run around and explore.<br><br>Yes, there are outstanding schools in London. Unfortunately, most people can't afford to live near them. So you end up sending your child to a good school, or an adequate one, all because you want to live within walking distance of a wide range of restaurants.<br>

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Sutent · March 2014

@misscara: why wouldn't you send you child to an inner city London school? If the results are as good as your village school the only difference between from my experience is the type of child<span style="font-size: 10pt;"> that goes there</span>

NorthNineteen · March 2014

I'm not sure about primary schools but those bringing up children in Harringey are very fortunate to have two of the best state secondary schools in London on their doorstep.<br>

Mirandola · March 2014

The thing about the London schools data is that it's not about Westminster and St Pauls, it's about bog standard comps and primaries having improved massively.

Sutent · March 2014

Thank goodness we got rid of grammar schools. <div><br></div>

andy · March 2014

@northnineteen @mirandola - thanks for the links. really interesting and sort of counterintuitive.

JoeV · March 2014

<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Georgia">If the parents are content, I think their children will be as well, at least in theory. I grew up in the city, in a very small space. Looking back, the lack of space wasn’t ideal, but I don’t think it was life damaging. The main factor in this is that my parents weren’t miserable about it, or if they were they didn’t make it their children’s problem. So I never really knew until I was an adult (seriously) that most didn’t live the way we did.</font><font face="Arial, Verdana" style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></font></p>

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Detritus · March 2014

My son goes to a private school, and if they move back to the UK will more than likely go to a private one here. It's not that I object to state schools but if you have the opportunity to provide a better standard of education for your child why wouldn't you?

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minim · March 2014

Like @JoeV, I grew up in a small space. We lived in a one-bed flat and my parents slept in the living room until I was 12. It never occurred to me that it would be better to live in a house with a garden. I loved growing up where I did, never felt like I missed out, and don't think they could've made a better choice for me. As long as you've got green space nearby (we lived right by a park) kids don't need a lot of space. <span style="font-size: 10pt;">I find the idea that parents choosing to raise kids in London are doing it for fundamentally selfish reasons pretty offensive. If we moved out of London I'd see a lot less of my son due to a longer commute, which also factored in our decision. With no family nearby we don't get to go out in the evenings (or at least not together) so restaurants, nightlife or whatever didn't matter. The fact that we're only be a tube journey away from lots of interesting museums, and that London has lots of parks and green spaces, did. Yes, we live in London because we love it here (and are lucky enough to be able to afford to stay), but we wouldn't have stayed if we didn't think it would be a fantastic place for a kid to grow up.</span><div><br><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;">And I still don't understand the schools obsession. Unless your local school is crap, which surely not that many of them are, why does it matter that much? </span><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Most outstanding schools in the area are in the more affluent bits, and I'm sure the better results are due in part to parents getting their kids tutoring outside of school. It doesn't mean the school itself is actually that much better. What you do with your kids at home is so much more important.</span></div></div><div><br></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div><br></div>

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JoeV · March 2014

@Misscara - We were a family of 5 in a 1-bedroom flat. My sister and I shared a bedroom with my parents until I was 8 (my sister was older) and then moved into the lounge because my brother came along. The lounge was 11 x 7 feet and all three us shared it until I was 16. So that's it 2 rooms plus a small eat-in kitchen.<div><br></div><div>This wasn't unusual for my generation and we weren't the only family that had to doubled like, but we were probably one of the most cramped. Maybe because the flat was in a small terrace house that we shared with my grandparents and not a block of flats it didn't seem so bad, but we didn't have the whole run of the house, just the upstairs bit. I never felt deprived.</div><div><br></div><div>I don't know how my parents felt but they were able to have another child, even with two children sleeping in the same room, and they never divorced, unlike everyone of my mother's siblings who lived in proper houses with big yards in the suburbs. On my father's side, all lived in small terraces houses in the city, no divorces. anecdotal yes, but I always thought this was telling.</div><div><br></div><div>As for the neighbors, everyone had two, three, four kids and lived the same way. In a terrace house or an apartment block there's always compromise about noise but you couldn't really complain about someone else's children when yours were making just as much a racket. Today more people live alone or have less children. It's harder to make compromises when lifestyles conflict.</div><div><br></div><div>The problem with flats in London though, at least in conversions, is that most houses were not built as proper blocks of flats for multiple families and the conversions are done shoddily with no sound insulation and proper separation of spaces. When the people upstairs start bouncing off the walls, it's a lot hard to tell them to shut the hell up when they aren't related to you.</div>

Idoru · March 2014

I went to the kind of school where pupils stabbed the teachers (this actually happened). It was also the 13th-worst-performing secondary school in all of England and Wales. You really don't need to be in London to have bullying, violence or a poor educational performance.<div><br></div><div>I'd like to add that it wasn't me who did the stabbing.</div>

Mirandola · March 2014

@crankyITguy @northnineteen, It is counterintuitive, mostly because it's not really been reported outside the wonky bits of the broadsheets. I guess happiness writes white and good news is dull. See also: crime going down, road accidents going down, teenage pregnancies idem.

Mirandola · March 2014

And, of course, my hobbyhorse of most politicians being decent people.

minim · March 2014

@Misscara, I definitely see how it could be a problem with more than two kids, and yes you have to take the neighbours into consideration. I grew up in an apartment building, and noise insulation was better than in the Victorian conversions you get around here. A building that wasn't designed to have a lot of people living closely together can be more problematic. <span style="font-size: 10pt;">I'm not trying to say this would suit everyone either, I guess my point was more that plenty of people</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> can and do live very happily under those circumstances, and automatically assuming that those children would be happier elsewhere is wrong. How/where you yourself were raised probably influences how much space you feel you need as an adult more than anything, and having never known anything but small flats I never felt the need for more space. That said, I find myself living in a house for the first time ever, and though the extra space felt very weird at first (still getting used to the concept of going up/down the stairs inside my home), you do get used to it quickly!</span><div><br></div>

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miss annie · March 2014

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/nick-curtis-why-grow-up-anywhere-else-but-london-9207399.html

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Papa · March 2014

As a parent of three year old and one year old daughters, one of the main things that makes me want to stay in London is because I get to see more of them. We could move but my job wouldn't. I would then have to commute an hour and a half in total vs a 40 minute bike ride right now. That and the fact that Stroud Green is the best place in London to live and thus by default one of the best places in the world to live is a pretty good reason to remain here. Having small kids round here is great. They have tons to do, you can walk to friends and activities etc. I don't think primary school is overly important if you are a parent willing to get involved, so schools don't bother me. Only thing is, I grew up 25 mins outside of London but in the countryside, and do feel I would like to give my kids the extra breathing space and freedom to roam that I had, however right Nick Curtis seems.

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dion · March 2014

The thing is once you have left London, there is no coming back. I don't think I have ever heard of anyone selling up in the country and buying in London! That is why it is such a dilemma, because when you're gone, you're gone.

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