Distance restaurants can extend onto pavement?

24

Comments

  • edited July 2017
    Yes it is the ticket machine and nearby lamp post that occasionally has bikes chained which gives the problems sometimes....especially as base discs on metal poles give even less soace at ground level.

    Unfortunatley many people do not appreciate how much damage scoters could do , not giving them enough space to be safe, though most do when I point out I do not want to risk crushing toes...
  • edited December 2017
  • _Bee_Bee Stroud Green Road
    Yes, it is the combo of the restaurant edging out, that ticket machine, and that being a popular place for goodbye conversations of patrons that make it truly annoying to walk past. I'd go in to pappagones and ask them politely, but don't want to run the risk of them holding a grudge...
  • grennersgrenners Ferme Park Road, N4
    If they are extending beyond the area in the licence agreement they will also likely be in breach of their planning permission. I think the licence and planning will be for a fixed period. Their licence could be terminated for breach and they will risk a refusal when they want to renew. You could look up the planning on the council website and complain to the planners? They will not likely just terminate anything but give them a chance to sort themselves out.
  • I looked them up on Twitter, conveniently their last tweet is a photo of outside which shows the problem so have tweeted pointing out the issue.

  • _Bee_Bee Stroud Green Road
    Thanks @Toddlesocks
    @grenners - I hate to show my ignorance, but I don't know where to find the planning on the council site. Can you point me in the right direction? Sorry, I'm not from around here but want to learn!
  • grennersgrenners Ferme Park Road, N4
    @_Bee I may have mislead you a bit as I thought all the applications were available on line like a planning application but I can't see them.

    https://www.islington.gov.uk/business/licences-permits-registration/trading-on-our-streets/tables-chairs-and-a-boards/a-boards-and-tables-and-chairs

    If you go into this address and open the latest application form there are contact details including a phone number for complaints. I think the licence should be public information so you should ask to see a copy of it as it will detail the permitted area. I just walked past it tonight and it does seem to have expanded. But if I was feeling strongly about it that's how I would go about it. Using the phone the old fashioned way and if you get nowhere email them.
  • edited July 2017
    Do speak to the restaurant before you contact the council though - that's only fair.
  • edited July 2017
    Only fair??? As if they don't know what they're doing? By putting out boards to which they're not entitled, or grabbing more pavement space than they've been allocated they're being inconsiderate shysters!

    The council should be made aware, and if it leads to their privilege—and it IS a privilege, not a right—to use the pavement being revoked, then well and good.
  • edited December 2017
  • Depends if you want to live in a world where politely saying to a local business: 'Excuse me, your tables are extending too far onto the pavement, please would you do something about this as it is causing people problems' is the right way forward.

    Or you think it's better to grass someone up to the council without even mentioning it to them first.

    I prefer the first one. Just seems a bit more courteous and civil.
  • grennersgrenners Ferme Park Road, N4
    Depends if you like going there to eat or not and want to feel comfortable eating your pizza.
  • edited July 2017
    Papa L, in this scenario it's definitely better to "grass someone up to the council" (my word, you do sound edgy, sir!) Your nicey-nicey "courteous and civil" polite argument keels over when you imply that people informing the council are grasses. How courteous and civil are these businesses being in the first place?

    No, thanks, I'd rather not live in your world of politely stating the bleedin' obvious to people who don't give a hoot. I'd rather live in a world where businesses weren't run by irresponsible chancers, and people didn't take the piss and followed the rules in the first place.

    If local business owners are so ignorant as to not know that taking over the pavement is causing a problem - no, let's be frank about this, surely they must know, but obviously they don't care - your polite approach is a waste of breath. Business culture, especially in the food-related trades, often seems to focus on seeing what you can get away with. A cold shower followed by a good rubbing with a stiff wire brush, that's what they need.
  • Am pretty sure it's less a case of a sinister conspiracy led by the restaurant managers to colonise as much of the pavement as possible and more a case of one of the minimum wage employees being told to put the tables and chairs and/or boards out front and not being told where they can and cannot go.

    After all, how many times have we seen A Power That Be standing out there supervising with a tape measure in hand and saying "no, that doesn't extend nearly far enough, drag it out even further"?

    I'm with @Papa L on this - after all, this is the community we choose to live in.
  • Many of these restaurants are long-term Stroud Green establishments run by independent business people who care about the area and have helped make it the vibrant place that it is.

    Some may feel that the courtesy of telling them your concern and asking them nicely to do something about it is worth extending.

    I fall into that camp.

    Not the conspiracy theory one, or the anonymous gripe one, or the run straight to the council one (and bring down officialdom on their head) etc.

    @grenners does make a good point as to why someone may feel they couldn't do this (although I reckon they'd be fine).

    @JefkeVanHoornzehout I think is just trying to troll me

    The point stands though. If you did something that as upsetting, inconveniencing or annoying someone, wouldn't you want them to tell you and ask if you could remedy it rather than dashing straight off to the authorities?
  • edited July 2017
    'Anging's too good fer 'em!

    @Papa L -Expressing anything other than a milquetoast attitude is not necessarily an attempt at trolling, and this really isn't.

    The "independent business people who care about the area" are surely the ones who play by the rules, and respect the public use of the pavement, so that's not who we're discussing here. Any business person caring about the impact they have on merely the area directly outside their premises would hardly need be told about this.

    I happily dash straight off to the authorities (and I do) because I resent the at best thoughtless or more likely indifferent attitude shown by those who clearly don't care, and I don't feel I owe them any imaginary courtesy whatsoever. In a similar vein, if I see someone trying to break into a neighbour's house, I don't go out and say "oh, you really oughtn't to do that, so please stop, now there's a good chap", no, I call the police. (Of course we're talking of a different order of magnitude here: I'm not saying this is a matter of criminality, but the principle is the same: I cheerfully "grass" the buggers up!) If a slap on the wrist from the council makes them care, that's fine. If they continue their indifference, then the council (which may have received more than one complaint, and about more than one issue about the same business) has documentation and is in a better position to take action and resolve the problem.
  • Geez, I had no idea this was such an inflammatory issue. There could be independent business people who care about area AND stray onto the pavement. I can easily see how a business could creep outward without anyone really noticing or realising, and there is a reasonable chance that if this is pointed out to them, together with the convenience they cause, that they would rectify it. It's hardly analogous to a burglary. IF nothing happens then by all means inform the council. Our neighbours have parties quite often. If they are too loud too late, we ask them to stop, and generally they do. We don't need to involve the council noise abatement officers. If they were persistent, then we would, but just talking to them like people works.
  • Seems that the posters oozing with the milque… I mean milk… of human kindness may feel it their civic duty to alert any transgressors before the likes of Jefke rats them out to the council!
  • We sure could have done with many more Jefkes in the area when Sugar Lounge was being a nightmare to live near...
  • grennersgrenners Ferme Park Road, N4
    I think tell the council as I do not think they will revoke the licence without giving them a chance. It's renewable yearly I read so they will say look if you want another licence don't do stuff that people complain about. Serves as a reminder to the council that they need to do their job in managing this, after all they get a fee from the restaurant for it. Also if one gets away with it they will all do it. I bet the other restaurants are most likely to be pissed off.
  • grennersgrenners Ferme Park Road, N4
    This is all on the assumption that they are in breach of their licence and we do not know that. Some bod at the council probably didn't study a new plan in a new agreement and they got more space legit? Someone needs to turn up at Islington town hall and confirm for all us concerned citizens by obtaining a copy of said licence with plan.
  • I sort of saw a Facebook message between the original owner of Sugar Lounge and a "friend" of hers in which she complained about the council nagging her (I used to be one of the page admins), so assuming things haven't changed in the intervening years, the council will no doubt inform them there have been complaints and to amend their actions accordingly before reviewing their licence.

    Bearing in mind all the discussions I had with the council over S*gar Lounge, the council did say they needed as many complaints as possible to support them approaching the business, so if it's only a few people who feel strongly about this, the Milquetoast approach may be better...
  • grennersgrenners Ferme Park Road, N4
    Bollocks if they are in breach of the licence the council can take action. They just are not aggressive enough. Or alternatively just not grant another. The restaurant has no right to another licence.
  • edited July 2017
    I agree with @grenners, minus the bollocks. (Don't you love it when Sweep talks dirty?)
  • edited July 2017
    It took just 2 spurious complaints for the Peoples Club to lose it's licence despite it being near no houses but then again that's in the hallowed part of the borough.
  • grennersgrenners Ferme Park Road, N4
    @Scruffy you will have to private message me for that kind of chat. This is a community forum.
  • edited July 2017
    Ooh-er @grenners ! I meant "love it" in the sense that I always imagined Sweep's saxophonic squeakings were him swearing at Harry Corbett and co.
  • Maybe the people who own some of the restaurants know they are over their allotted line but think it's probably okay, as people like the restaurants, the tables add character and they don't read local internet forums where people feel so strongly about it that they compare it to serious crimes but won't go in and say, please don't block the pavement.

    @JefkeVanHoornzehout 1) you made me Google the term milquetoast 2) I think you might have got it the wrong way round.

    Definition was milquetoast: 'a person who is timid or submissive'.

    Speaking to the restaurant in question is directly tackling the problem and involves personal contact and being assertive.

    Not doing that and making an anonymous complaint to the council would surely be the act of the person who is timid or submissive.



  • I agree with you; somebody in my block of flats put up a petition about the noise coming from the White Lion, and when I mentioned it in passing to the manager, he was very dismayed that someone had felt that strongly about it but hadn't felt able to simply approach him.

    And who knows, if you do approach Pappagone, they might offer some free meals as compensation - win!
  • grennersgrenners Ferme Park Road, N4
    I don't actually care about this issue.......this all arises because the person who started off the thread does care about it which is fine and didn't feel comfortable approaching a restaurant particularly without knowing a bit more about the rules and regulations. This is why approaching the council was suggested as being also the source of the answer to the question in the title of the thread.
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