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Challenging a parking ticket

therattletherattle
in General chat
Hello all,
This is probably dull but my dander is up. I parked on Wells Terrace recently and got a PCN. I live in Islington Zone J, and thought that the sign in this picture (link below) allowed pay by phone or IS-J. Apparently it is only pay by phone. If that is the case, why is IS-J shown? Am I being crazy to think that I made a reasonable interpretation (that it allows pay by phone AND IS-J)? is there any mileage in challenging this further? (The picture was sent by the council after my initial challenge).

Basically, if the bay is only PBP, why have IS-J on it too?
https://imgur.com/xCeSPR3
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Comments

  • HolbornFoxHolbornFox
    If you go all the way it will be up to an independent adjudicator to decide if it is a reasonable interpretation or not.
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  • poxypoxy
    Compare the sign to this one... https://goo.gl/maps/YVKhp6Lazxm

    The sign in your photo is lacking the crucial “Residents Permit Holders Only”.

    I got done in a similar fashion a couple of months ago. There are a couple of P&D only bays on my road. I parked in one without realising. I looked into contesting it but realised it was pointless. I’m just glad I noticed when there was just the one ticket and not the several that could have been there if I’d left the car there for a week.
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  • therattletherattle
    I know the signage is different (well, I do now!). So you think it's pointless to challenge?

    HolbornFox, do you have a view?
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  • HolbornFoxHolbornFox
    I completely agree with @poxy to be honest.
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  • BrodiejBrodiej
    @therattle. I disagree, there is no harm in challenging the ticket. They will obviously state that you are wrong but the inclusion of is-j has no relevance if the bay is pay and display only. I think they should explain why it’s on there.
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  • grennersgrenners Ferme Park Road, N4
    The first challenge is a informal one and councils refuse 99% of those regardless. Even when it's been a clear and obvious mistake by the council my appeals have been refused. Once that is done you move on to a formal challenge and at this stage someone actually looks into it. This can take a painfully long 6 months. Of course at this stage you have lost the opportunity to pay the fine at the lower rate. That is of course a tactic employed by the council to make you give up early. If one sign says Resident Permit Holders Only why does the other sign say No Permit Holders if it is also displaying the IS-J. I agree it's confusing but that's most likely deliberate but within the rules.
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  • grennersgrenners Ferme Park Road, N4
    *why does it not say No Permit Holders.
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  • conformable_kateconformable_kate
    I'd challenge. I think that the sign is ambiguous, and easily misunderstood. I've challenged quite a few parking fines over the years, and they do quite often allow the appeal - I think if they're at all doubtful about the case they don't want it to drag on.

    Should just say I'm in no way an unethical parker ...
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  • conformable_kateconformable_kate
    Also, I've never gone on to the adjudication stage, but so long as you appeal within the fortnight the fine is frozen at the lower rate until they've responded. So at least for the initial process you don't have anything to lose.
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  • therattletherattle
    Grenners is right; I miss the chance to pay at the lower rate if I appeal and lose. I am really annoyed, as the sign is clearly ambiguous (if that isn't oxymoronic!). I think I will appeal, on principle as much as anything else.

    Kate, I have made the initial appeal and they have responded; the issue is now whether to take it further.
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  • HolbornFoxHolbornFox
    edited December 2018
    If you read the website about the roamer scheme it clearly states that you must park in a residents bay and I think (from memory) that it further states that you cannot park in a pay only bay.

    Guarantee the permit terms will be the same.

    Playing devil's advocate maybe the J is listed to show the pay band or to show the warden what section of Islington you have paid for when parking on the app compared to where you have actually parked.

    Genuinely hope I am wrong.
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  • PapaPapa
    I would appeal that. It is definitely misleading in the context of Islingtons signage.

    The generally used convention in Islington is that signs mark out residents bays by having the zone, ie ISJ, on there. A reasonable person would expect that if you have an ISJ permit that you can park there.

    If you are not allowed to park there then it should not have ISJ written on it - as the ISJ is meaningless in this instance and just adds confusion.

    I would write back reiterating your points and saying that you do not think they have considered it properly - ask them to rescind it and crucially to change the signs to make them clear, as you believe others may also be caught out by this.

    Say that while this correspondence is ongoing you trust that reduced amount will continue to apply unless you are told otherwise.

    If they still refuse go to the adjudicator, which is now called London Tribunals. They are very reasonable and her cases fairly, unlike Popla which deals with private land tickets. If you take it all the way, I think you have a very good chance of winning and even if you don't, then you may still get to pay the reduced fine.

    Most likely scenario is that you go to the adjudicator and the council ultimately decides not to contest it or submit evidence and you win by default.
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  • therattletherattle
    Thanks Papa L; I am tending that way, and your suggestion about writing back is a good one.

    HolbornFox, it isn't about the roamer scheme; my permit covers me in that zone at any time. It's the fact that the sign is misleading as it indicates IS-J on the sign even though it is ostensibly pay-by-phone only. The bays are identified by numbers; they don't need the zone displayed.
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  • HolbornFoxHolbornFox
    My point was that you couldn't park in that bay under the roamer scheme, well not for free anyway
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  • HolbornFoxHolbornFox
    And if you read my point there is reasons why they might want to display the bay identification number.
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  • grennersgrenners Ferme Park Road, N4
    There is a 5 digit location number on the sign which is how the warden confirms you have paid for the correct spot. The IS-J is the residents permit zone which seems to be on a sign which is not for resident permit holders.
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  • PapaPapa
    @Holborn Fox - yep, the five digit number number identifies the bay so you pay for the right one.

    The roamer thing isn't applicable because that is for parking in residents bays in other parts of Islington, whereas therattle has an IS-J permit and therefore can park in any IS-J residents bay - which the confusing signage suggests this is one of.

    So, although we live at the other end of IS-J we can use our residents permit to park in IS-J residents permit bays down by the station.
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  • HolbornFoxHolbornFox
    edited December 2018
    Again. I only used the roamer scheme as an example, I am using the relevance as to why you cannot park in a pay only bay.

    I am Islington as well and the rules are clear!
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  • grennersgrenners Ferme Park Road, N4
    Probably the council can say the IS-J is there to denote a pay bay located within the IS-J zone. The point is it's not relevant to someone parking there as you need to pay. Some jobsworth at the local council is spending all his time working out how much information can be put on one sign. All part of a conspiracy to confuse people and get more money to pay wages of said unceccessary people.
    There must or should be a rule to say only relevant information shall be out on a parking sign otherwise it's there to confuse customers.
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  • PapaPapa
    The parking signs are meant to be clear and follow a standard system - this sign is confusing at a glance. I reckon you'd stand at least a 7 in ten chance of winning at the adjudicator.
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  • jaculajacula
    FWIW, we got a ticket last year, appealed and won. It does happen!
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  • HolbornFoxHolbornFox
    On what grounds did you challenge it?
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  • therattletherattle
    I am definitely challenging it. The sign is very misleading.
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