Development of John Jones Site / Sketch House

Arkady

I rather like the pale stone on the back.  But as JoeV says, once the student accommodation is done you won't be able to see the back of the JJ building unless you are actually inside the block, looking from the new raised garden.

Papa

It will always be visible if you are at the back of the building, including it seems from these raised gardens, and I'm pretty sure it will be visible from some points from the road<br><br>We are not talking about almost back to back-style Central London buildings here. There is an open area in the middle and there will be sightlines from the roads it seems. This is a serious flaw in my opinion.<br><br><br>Why design the front of a building to look good and not the back? That's just doing half a job. If I was going to build something or be proud of my design I'd want it to look good from all angles.<br><br><br>

JoeV

But this is normal practice  and no different from, say, any Victorian house - most have their ornamentation and decorative brick work in the front -- where the public at large see it -- not the back.<div><br></div><div>When I look out my back window through the gardens to the other houses I see plan brick - no bay windows, no ornate stonework around windows and doors. <div><br></div><div><br></div></div>

Arkady

Quite.  And there will be no sightlines from the road, except perhaps a slightest glimpse from Clifton Terrace until Godfrey's redevelop.

Sutent

The whole thing is a bit of an eyesore

Papa

Beauty is the eye of the beholder and if you are the kind of person who likes this kind of thing I can see why it wouldn't bother you.<br><br>I, like many living in a low rise Victorian era area, however, am pretty sceptical on the arrival of big imposing buildings. The John Jones building has won me over though, as it looks stylish. I walked past the other day and reflected on that handsome front compared to its back and thought that the back was ugly and plain and a real shame.<br><br>The back of a Victorian terrace house looks a lot better than that flat, bland, brutal back of the John Jones building.<br><br>Just my opinion but it seems a bit of a shame. Wouldn't have taken much to make it a bit more interesting.<br>

Sutent

I can see why people like it, but its really not for me. When I was looking at it yesterday it made me really think if I really want to live anymore in N4. I am sort of stuck here for the next 4 years until I finish my PhD, but if it carries on changing like this I will think about selling and moving on. I grew up in inner city London in a very mixed and rich community. I am not sure if Stroud Green will be able to provide that anymore. 

Arkady

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi">Sutent, I keep hearing variations of that statement, but always free of supporting explanation.  How does a new arts building, being a major employment location with accompanying student and affordable accommodation, detract from ‘a very mixed and rich community’?  Does it not make *<b>more</b>* mixed and rich?  How does it negatively affect the Victorian domiciles around it in the way that you and others imply?<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">I recognise that some people object to buildings that are more than two-three stories on principle.</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">  </span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">But these objections strike me as divorced from reality.</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">  </span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">The area immediately around the station is not Victorian, but a collection of poorly-built and badly designed 1980s sheds.</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">  </span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">The John Jones building, on the other hand, is a splendid example of the best of Victorian industrial design, modernised to incorporate advances in technology while avoiding pastiche (a hard task).</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">  </span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">In a period of growing population and insufficient housing, it would be irresponsible, frankly, to underuse a development site such as this.</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">In other words, from both an objective understanding of need and an subjective aesthetic perspective, the John Jones development has always struck me as a best-possible solution.</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">  </span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Criticism of it, in comparison, always seems so vague and poorly evidenced.</span></p>

Papa

I think it is very imposing, Arkady. Perhaps that's why? Somehow it feels like it is changing the character, even though it is on what was a scrubby bit of buildings and land that it is making better.<br><br>From our many years of sharing threads on here, I know that I stand in a different camp to you on buildings and architecture and initial thoughts towards plans for them.<br><br>In this instance, I think your feelings for a building were proved right - lending weight to your words above.<br><br>That's why I think I find the back of the building so disappointing.<br>

miss annie

I think our views on this will always differ @Arkady. I do want to point out though that for the bus users the immediate area probably does look awful, Clifton Terrace is no one's idea of glamour. If you approach on foot however, the immediate area of Charteris Rd, Lennox Rd, and the roads off it, and Fonthill are all all low rise Victorians. Sutent and I both see that view to the station which is probably why we have a very similar opinion.

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Arkady

Papa L: Thanks for your kind words. For me, ‘imposing’ is neither good or bad. A concrete tower block can be imposing. St Pancras is definitely imposing. I like the imposition if it the design and aesthetic are good. <br><br>One of my favourite parts of London is Clerkenwell, with its mix of 2-3 story townhouses and 6-7 story warehouses. FP has the possibility of capturing this in miniature. I’m also very keen on clusters (especially on top of transport interchanges) and ‘stepping up’ to them in scale with neighbouring developments. Coupled with what I said above about the underlying realities, the recent developments in FP represent a bold and well-considered move in the right direction. Sorry you don’t like the back. I rather like the marble-esque stonework.<br><br>MissAnnie: Perhaps you’re right, at least about our subjective disagreements. As you know, I adore Victorian architecture, and highly rate the streets that you name. That you prefer to have a view of crumbling ‘80s workshops that are half the height of their surroundings, rather than top-notch modern architecture that’s 1/3rd higher, may well be a permanent sticking point! No doubt we can both live with that! :-)

helen

I'll show my hand early and say I'm with @Arkady on this one. It's a great addition to the area on many different criteria<br>I think a blank canvas at the back might well be something of an inspired thought - think of it as a blank sheet of canvas onto which many different images can be projected. Now if we could maybe persuade @katejones and the team to have a play with that, we might all be very sad once we can't see it from the road anymore<br>

Arkady

As for the student housing issue: building dedicated student housing removes pressure from the remainder of the housing market. It’s better for long-term residents, with or without families, to be living in our old Victorian housing stock than for them to be packed with students. Student numbers are rising just like the rest of the population (and, incidentally, higher numbers of students from low-income backgrounds than ever before). We need more housing of all types. And much of it will need to be tall!

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JoeV

@Arkady - I agree with you on almost all points but this one. My only objection to this development was the student housing use. Low income students won't be paying up to £250 a week to live in a halls of residence such as this one unless they are is given a subsidy and I assume as students<span style="font-size: 10pt;"> they will be paying little or no council tax while using council services. </span><div><div><br></div><div>I'd much rather it be general residential instead of a short-stay hotel but what's done is done and given that there will be 15 units of affordable housing and the new complex allows JJ to stay and expand, well it's an acceptable compromise .</div></div>

Arkady

@Misscara<;div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Only </span><a href="http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/international/international-students-the-facts/by-university/" style="font-size: 10pt;">1/3rd</a><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> of students at the University of the Arts are from overseas. </span></div><div><a href="http://localstats.qpzm.co.uk/stats/england/london/haringey/stroud-green">1/3rd</a> of the population of Stroud Green are from overseas.<br><br>The proposed student population is, therefore, pretty representative. Perhaps not right for you to be making this about foreigners.<br><br>I’ll ignore your crass sneering tone, as you use it with everyone now no matter what the subject, and I suspect you’re no longer capable of being polite to people.<br></div>

Arkady

I take your point Joe. But again, the students have to live somewhere don’t they? I’m personally opposed to the ‘make it another borough’s problem’ approach. And, as above, they may well have been living council-tax free elsewhere in the borough, in accommodation that was not purpose-built for students and which would be better-suited to families.

JoeV

@Arkady - that's a bit harsh, no? How many of that 1/3 of University of the Arts from overseas live in halls of residence? If it's all or most, then it's a fair point.

Arkady

I’m not sure I understand your question Joe. But the more students living in dedicated student accommodation the better for the rest of us.

JoeV

In the US, halls of residence are usually owned by the university or college, which pay property taxes. It's not the same in this country and once built, students halls are a type of land use that doesn't generate any income for the council. If 400 people move into City North and were given a break on council tax there'd be an uproar.

Arkady

<a href="http://www.islington.gov.uk/services/council-tax/discountexemption/Pages/studentdiscounts.aspx">Students living in private accommodation don't pay council tax either.</a>  Thus, unless you are proposing getting rid of students from the borough altogether, It's better that they are living in dedicated accommodation.

JoeV

You implied Misscara was somewhat racist for her comment about 'foreigners'. <span style="font-size: 10pt;">Yes, only 1/3 of students at the University of the Arts may be from overseas, but if they occupy a large percentage of the resident halls offered by the school, her point is valid in my opinion.</span><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div>

JoeV

Look, there's a competition for space. I get that. I love students. I was one at one time. But the days of grotty student flats are going, going, gone. I'm happy for the council to give a struggling student sharing a crappy flat a break. <div><br></div><div>But I'm less inclined to give a student living in luxury housing the same discount. I'm sorry but that's my opinion.</div>

Arkady

I’m hyper-sensitive to things being blamed on foreigners, and I did sniff a bit of that here. I understand now what you’re saying about the overseas student/student hall issue – it would be interesting to see the numbers. Still, instinctively I think they have as much right to be here as anyone else, and as much if not more to contribute. I just won’t buy into arguments that criticise them over ‘indigenous’ people, especially those of us born outside London. Anyway, we digress.

JoeV

I'm a foreigner, so I understand, believe me. I wasn't offended. The thing is, I'm not against students either and yes they have to live somewhere. But my beef is more with the university and the developer - this is a for-profit money-making operation and to me just another example of a corporate subsidy. The students suffer by paying high rents, the residents and council<span style="font-size: 10pt;"> suffer because we will have to accommodate another 400 people using services without compensation, we subsidy them.</span><div><br></div><div>But I think I've said too much. The fact remains that a great local business, JJ, has been able to stay and continue provide jobs in the area, and they also built a great looking building, at least to me. <br><div><div><br></div></div></div>

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Arkady

Noted Joe. Definitely given me some stuff to think about.

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