Development of John Jones Site / Sketch House

andy

I'm not Dion and I don't have any interest in John Jones. It's a shame people can't recognise that people might reasonably disagree and not be part of a massive conspiracy.<div><div><br><div><div>I have found the tone of some in this campaign hysterical (primarily the idea that "cutting down a tree is worse than murder") and the scapegoating of John Jones unreasonable over what is, essentially, a bit of gardening. </div></div></div></div>

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kreuzkav

The jeep man doesn't usually wear a jumper over shirt.

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JoeV

<div>If it's about the trees start a committee to have more street trees planted, work with the council, raise money, raise awareness.</div><div><br></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;">It sounds to me that people are projecting their sense on powerlessness on a tree. I can get that. Being priced out of living where one would like to live or feeling the world is leaving you behind is disheartening - whether it's reality or a perception. But you can channel this frustration and maybe improve something. </span></div><div><br></div><div>As an FYI there are two new pits awaiting new trees on Stroud Green Road on the Haringey side  (near Deli at 80 and again further down</div><div><br></div>

Arkady

@Misscara, murder is, by definition, the unlawful killing of another human. However bad it may be to kill a tree, it is not as bad as killing a human, and to call it murder undermines that really quite important distinction. Andy isn’t mocking you, he’s pointing out that your hyperbole is a) objectively wrong and b) undermines your case by making you look like you seriously lack perspective.

kreuzkav

Joe, so true people are pissed off with their lack of power.  What's wrong with that.  I didn't realise when I saw the plans on here a few years ago how horrible and big the project would be.  It all seemed so fluffy and wonderful.  Now I can't wait to shop in the designer shops.  Yes, I'm annoyed and frustrated.  What's wrong with that.  Nothing, we live in a world where we accept the man in the jeep (perhaps with the jumper over shirt) taking over.  It happened in New York.  It's happening here in Stroud Green.

Arkady

Back to ‘moving on’. What species of trees would make the best replacements? Saplings or semi-mature?<br><br>@JoeV - Thanks for the SGR tip. Sadly some old tree pits now have pipes and cables underneath them so they can’t be replanted – hopefully that isn’t the case there.<br>

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kreuzkav

@ Misscara.  Agree so much with you.  I realise I shoot my mouth off and I took down a comment about shares.  Ben thanked me but then went on to be patronising.  He's always been like that over the four years I've been on here.  I've tried to be nice to him but he just loves to feel superior.  He won't be getting my vote.

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Arkady

Social sounds good Misscara, I will even buy you a peace drink.  It’s been too long.

Sutent

The last time I went out with you 2 I got so hammered! Ben you still going out with the same girl?

Banbers

I know I'm late to the party with this, having moved in less than a year ago. I had no idea of the scale and ugliness of all this development, otherwise I might have thought twice about moving here. It's abysmal. <br><br>The heinous 'presumption to approve' clause in the new local planning act means you have very little hope of challenging any planning applications, as long as the developer can show there are more benefits to building than not building. Which is ridiculous, as that presents you with a false choice - either this particular scheme or nothing. <br><br>But the law also claims to give local communities more of a say in how things are done, via neighbourhood forums. Is there one for FInsbury Park? Shouldn't we be looking into setting one up? And if there is, then maybe more people need to get involve with it so it has more clout over any future plans.<br><br><br>

Arkady

@Sutent – That was a bonkers evening! I left half of my possessions in the pub. Let’s not do another weeknight, eh? (And, no, not for a long time).

Arkady

@Banbers, there’s a lot that might interest you in this thread, including my tentative steps towards a Stroud Green neighbourhood forum. http://www.stroudgreen.org/discussion/3144/stroud-green-beautification/p1<div><br>Page 5 has some related survey evidence and pretty pictures.<br><br>In short, it takes a colossal amount of time to set one up, even longer to come up with a formal plan, and then that plan has to pass a referendum. My suspicion is that it would end up being just as divisive as the current planning system, particularly in brown-field areas where people have irreconcilable views on what sort of development is appropriate.<br></div>

andy

@misscara - To be very clear, I wasn't talking about you. You've been at this since the beginning, in reasonable and measured terms, and I've always respected that. 

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Ali

<P>oversaturation of the park with concerts  but does not the Kurdish New Year celebrations, the Circus and the Routmaster Bus event count towards the "events"  ie they are not all Concerts that take the park over for weeks at a time. ADGS  have we be taken in by the propoganda against Harfingey Council?</P> <P>I don't like the idea of the trees going but were they not the wrong type for the location as I think they were London Planes that grow pretty massive.</P> <P>Agree about the building. It is a disapointment on   scale and materails used.  It is basically a big lego click together building which is why it went up so quick</P>

dion

They were events in the context of parking restrictions

Ali

<P>In the park or around the side street.</P> <P>Interesting  as Ben previouly know as Arcardy  started  the Concerts in the park thread here with this statement</P> <P><A href="http://www.stroudgreen.org/discussion/4742/concerts-in-the-park/p1">http://www.stroudgreen.org/discussion/4742/concerts-in-the-park/p1</A></P>; <P>"You might be interested to hear, then, that Haringey’s Labour council have determined that the number of concert days in the park should be increased, from the current maximum of five per year, to <B>EIGHTEEN </B>per year."<BR><BR>So is it 18 events a year or 18 Concerts as stated or is a Concert day something diffrent ie include set up, the event and take down, does a circus count as a Concert day ?</P> <P> </P> <P>I agree with  Miscarra it would  be great to have ELO. I am sure lots on here  have been on the Last Train to London !</P> <P> </P>

dion

Definitely on the side streets in haringey though. Not in islington Sounds like an event to me

Arkady

I think they settled on 15 days in the end.  That does not include set-up and take down, which often takes up to a week either side of the vent.<div><br></div><div>This, despite opposition from all the surrounding (Labour) boroughs, huge signature campaign, and public meetings where people were overwhelmingly opposed.  Sad.<br><div><br></div><div>PS I was never known as Arcardy.</div></div>

Banbers

@BenMyRing <br><br>Ah. Thanks for the info. I thought that may be the case. I do wonder though if it's worth doing. I think we need more of a community focal point - including a great website showing planning applications mapped out and info on how to comment on proposals, that kind of thing.<br><br>I was thinking something along the lines of the Chatsworth Road neighbourhood group, in my old stomping ground of Clapton. http://www.chatsworthroade5.co.uk/planning/ ; That said, their website seems not to be working very well at the moment...<br><br>I know about the Stroud Green Yahoo Group but I'm still waiting for a reply to my request to join.<br><br>Anyway. I still REFUSE to believe that there's nothing we can do about anything. <br><br>

NorthNineteen

Arcady is a transport modelling software for modelling traffic at roundabouts. Just so you all know.

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Sutent

ha ha

Arkady

@banbers: The Yahoo group isn’t up to much.<br><br>I post all the relevant Haringey applications here – and instructions on how to comment can be found on the planning website. I will ask Islington to start sending me their list again so I can cover both sides.<br><br>I think you and I would probably agree that it would be good for more people to be engaged in their community and feel that they had a stake in the planning process. And I would agree that more can be done to help people learn about applications. Where I am increasingly cynical, though, is that increased community participation would make for more consensus, or for a better end-result. I have been quite heavily immersed in the world of planning – especially in Finsbury Park and in King’s Cross – for some years now. I am coming to the conclusion that the people who would choose to participate would have strong and often irreconcilable views (like on this thread), often almost entirely subjective. And the stronger the views the less likely people are to see the bigger picture (need four employment, housing, etc), or be willing to compromise, or indeed recognise that their views are subjective (like yours on the aesthetics of John Jones, which I equally subjectively think are nonsense ;-)<br><br>It might be the case that representative democracy (electing people to oversee expert planners, with a robust and fair appeals system) has a better outcome than community planning. I’m honestly torn on the subject. But if you take the regeneration of King’s Cross, for example, if it been left to the self-appointed ’community representatives’ to make the plans then nothing would have happened, it would still be a mouldering pile of crumbling heritage adding nothing to the economy or community. It’s actually pretty depressing. And like the comments thread on any online article ever, the people who would get involved are a self-selecting, unaccountable group who might very well be dominated by NIMBYs. There’s a real correlation there, and much less of a correlation between urban regeneration/modern architecture enthusiasts and community activism.<br><br>On the other hand, Stroud Green Conservation Area Advisory Committee is staffed by hard-working and committed volunteers (often with an expert background) who tend to see the bigger picture and make excellent recommendations – which often as not are ignored by the Council, who also fail to properly enforce their own regulations. Also depressing.

Banbers

@BenMyring<;br><br>Actually, I don't really mind the new John Jones building - it's just the scale of it together with the student bit. I get the need for jobs and regeneration - I just don't get why it always has to be six-storeys plus. But yes, of course, you are right, it's all subjective. <br><br>Anyway, I shall keep an eye out for your very useful updates. I wish there was someone doing the same for Hackney and Islington.<br>