Subsidence in N4. Recommended insurers. Help!!!

nirjay

Dear Stroud Greeners,
My wife and I are looking to buy a property in N4. All was going well until we received details from the vendors solicitor that showed the property had suffered subsidence in 2003 and had to have some underpinning done in the rear bay window area. As the property is currently unoccupied it leaves us with an insurance problem. Can anyone recommend good insurers. Also, as we didn't know about this, we're going to go back and renegotiate our price. Can anyone recommended a fair price reduction?
best wishes to all.
Jay and Penny

Ali

I think that who ever the previous insurers are have to take you on once you move in. Everyone else wil try and charge lots I would think. Did your survey pick it up as it should have done? You should be able to ask the ABI about this on 020 7600 3333

staplejack

Hi NirJay,

Most properties in the area have suffered some sort of subsidence. It goes with the territory unfortunately and I'm not sure you could get much of a discount as a result.

All the insurance companies have a dubious arrangement in that if a company insures a property that experiences subsidence then they are honour-bound to continue insuring it. This means they have you over a barrel in terms of pricing - no other insurance company will touch you - but you are absolutely entitled and able to get insurance.

Make sure you get copies of all correspondence between builders, loss-adjusters, insurers etc when you complete the purchase just to be on the safe side. Eg some subsidence has been caused by root incursion from the since-regularly-pollarded trees and there might be some liability admitted by the council.

If your prospective place has already been underpinned then you shouldn't have too many concerns about purchasing, I bought 12 years ago just as the underpinning was taking place and not had and problems at all. In fact, the building work meant that I got the place redecorated after I moved in without having to do it myself!!

helen

with subsidence way back in 2003 and rectification i would have thought insuring now should be ok. worse case scenario use the insurer who currently covers the property (this is what we did when we moved in) and then move it next year. but actually if there is no evidence of any further problem come up on the survey I would be rather bullish with the insurers as once the problem has been corrected and all has been well for a number of years there really isn't an argument they can use

tosscat

There's no point being bullish with insurers, they don't have to quote, and even if they did they only have to give you a quote of £20k pa and you're probably not going to buy it. So you'll just end up winding yourself up in the process. Bay windows are notoriously prone to subsidence, is it solely the bay window? How are you financing the property? If you don't have a mortgage on it you could always exclude subsidence cover or increase your excess on subsidence to drive your premium down. I'm loath to suggest it, but your best bet is to visit a local insurance broker; this area is prone to subsidence and they will have experience of placing the these sorts of risks. Even if you do go with the current/previous insurer you will have the same problem at renewal. Don't be tempted to go down the non-disclosure route, they will just use it to repudiate any claim.

tosscat

[Ta-da!](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=subsidence+insurance+broker)

staplejack

Fine linkage, tosscat. That will be re-purposed at some stage...

Although I would wager that many people come to this site for the possibility of finding some sort of personal recommendation, over and above the power of google's paid-for and "natural" search results?

tosscat

How true.

twinspark

Use the existing insurers.Find out who did the work in 2003, probably Purkelly Ltd on Victoria Road/ Mount Pleasant Villas, they grew from small builders in 1981 to specialists in underpinning, subsidence repair. This kind of work would frequently have a guarantee of 10 years or so for workmanship.[ ditto roofs, damproof courses etc.] A lot of work done is the area was pre-emptive and would probably not have been required by any actual subsidence, but the mere threat is enough for people to spend money.

A lot of insurers use subsidence to drive up premiums - they imagine it as whole houses falling down or a cracking down the centre - in 30-odd years I've never seen this in N4 where I can point to dozens of houses that have had repairs . If it is end of terrace of detached an on a hill it can be worse but still repairable.

Subsidence is caused by the properties of the local London clay which shrinks and swells with seasonal changes. Quite a few houses develop cracks internally too - most N4 housing stock is 1880's onward and features old lath & plaster walls which often crack in the corners -but few fall apart they just move a bit, but always move back again.!!

Arkady

A local restorer/house convertor told me that the Victorians would poor their bathwater into their house foundations in the summer to stop the clay drying out and limit the amount of movement. Arky

Pru

We had subsidence and got underpinning done through our insurers, Liverpool Victoria. They were great.

Seeing how the underpinning was done was amazing though. Our previous foundations went down about 20cm, and now they're about 2 metres of solid concrete!

I'd feel reassured if a house has already been underpinned. It's such a common problem round here and one that's been done already saves you getting the hassle at a later date!

nirjay

Dear All,
Many thanks for the advice from everyone. To clarify, the house we're looking to buy is currently empty, and thus the current insurers only insure empty properties, so we're not in a position to take over the existing insurance. We tried Liverpool Victoria who now do not cover subsidence, we tried the previous insurers when the property was lived in (Norwich Union) who now don't cover subsidence, we've sent all our details plus survey report, previous engineers reports to a company called Adrian Flux and see what they come back with, but it's amazing that underpinning, which fixes the problem and makes your home secure is something insurers sniff at like a bad smell. We love the house, but damn the clay!!!

ShaunG

There are insurers who specialise in empty properties? How peculiar. You are right though that insurers see underpinning as an indication of a subsidence problem, and therefore a black mark rather than an assurance that the issue's been dealt with. Very unfair. When we were moving to the area, we very nearly bought a house on the ladder but discovered subsidence in the survey. We spoke to loads of people, with views varying from "nearly all houses have it, everyone worries too much" to "you'll never be able to sell it again, get out now while you can". We concluded that although the house was probably fine and would never fall over (and anything that did happen would be fixable with underpinning or whatever), the potential costs hanging over us were too much of a worry, given that we were already stretching our finances a bit to buy the place. So although we loved the house, we passed. We found our current house (much nearer SG proper) on the rebound and have never regretted the decision. Individual anecdotes rarely help with your own decision, but my own feeling from our experience is that even when you think you've found "the one", you can surprisingly quickly find better once you've disengaged.

marko

Subsidence and movement is a problem that effects almost all victorian buildings in the area.

One of the issues that has not been touched on yet is that lime mortar was traditionally used in houses of this age. It remains flexible after it has set, unlike modern equivalents.

This is a double edged sword - it tolerates a certain degree of movement in the foundations due to the shrinking and expansion of London clay, but at the same time, is less stiff than portland cement. One of the effects of this can be progressive bowing outwards in tall thin houses that lack enough lateral strength.

If you look upwards in Charteris and Moray Road you will notice that a good proportion of the 3-story victorian terraces houses have had their front (and sometimes rear) walls rebuilt above the first or second storey. You'll also see lateral wall-ties.

I have drawn a blank on finding information on when this was done to my house, although I suspect that it may well have been when the houses in the area were rehabilitated by LBI in the late 70s and early 80s. I suspect they were under-pinned at the same time as the good floor is cement. Perhaps somebody here is able to provide some more information?

The solution to the insurance issue for my house was to get a Structural Engineer's survey done. This costs about £300-£350, but is valid for a few years. I came clean with my insurer when I started noticing things about the property, and the report was enough to satisfy them that there were no problems.

These types of issues are enormously common in houses of this age, so getting insured really shouldn't be an issue. What you can't do is apply for a policy online, but specialist brokers - particularly local ones ought to be well aware of the issues. I'm using the Bedford Insurance Group.