Crouch End CPZs

hughpear

OK, so I'm a few yards over the border in N8 but we're neighbours, yes? Latest from Haringey Council is that they're planning to extend the two Crouch End CPZs. In particular, up to and including Ferme Park Road. Which will leave Ridge Road and Nelson Road, where I live, as the first streets anyone comes to which are NOT in a CPZ. Great.

So we're going to get all the junk vehicles, tow trucks, occasionally used delivery vans, old motorhomes, everyone's second and third cars, plus the first cars of people who live just to the west of us. In fact we get a fair few of all these already, as the CPZs creep steadily closer. We can't find a parking space round here NOW after around 6.30 most evenings.

Plenty of you have been through this yourselves. So did I, when I lived on Evershot Road and found myself on a street - guess what - just outside an Islington CPZ. Result: predictable hell. And of course, after a year or so of that hell, the residents caved in and begged for a CPZ themselves. And now that street is fine again.

Why do we have to go through this charade, over and over? The whole of Hornsey/Stroud Green will obviously be one big CPZ eventually. Just bring it on NOW. That way, at least it's fair for everyone. The council's piecemeal approach just creates waves of unfairness as the CPZ-dodgers move their vehicles into an ever-decreasing number of streets.

Anyone on Nelson, Inderwick, Mayfield, Denton, Weston Park and Ridge Roads feel the same way? Now's the time to contact the council/your councillors/MP and say - we don't want everyone else's junk vehicles. We don't want to be on the front line just outside your enlarged CPZ. If there have to be CPZs, then we want to be IN them.

andy

*And of course, after a year or so of that hell, the residents caved in and begged for a CPZ themselves.* Not the case, as I recall. It was strongly opposed despited a fudged consultation. There are threads on this site from the period making the argument.

andy

Hello, though. You are of course very welcome.

sincers

Your right. The part of FPR outside the CPZ is a nightmare. I took the slightly more radical step of getting rid of the car altogether - although it still bothers me. There are so many untaxed cars on this stretch, I welcome a CPZ here.

Papa

Presumably if you aren't in a CPZ you can't apply for a permit within one and just park in the CPZ? My personal preference would be to scrap the CPZ, but that isn't going to happen. That means councils need to really think about what they are doing here when they bring in the CPZs. For example does a 10 to 12 only CPZ help the evening crush more than an all day job? What about CPZs only applying three days a week - does that deter commuters. Is there a genuine need for CPZ once you get beyond immediate station confines? Questions like that should be properly tested. I'd like to see proper research and facts and figures on this, rather than councils just bunging out propaganda.

hughpear

Well yes, there's understandably always strong opposition to having a CPZ introduced. Nobody likes having to pay a bit for something that was previously free, plus you have to cover your visitors.

But after more than a decade now of experience, one thing is obvious: to resist them is futile because if you succeed in your resistance, your reward is to be engulfed with refugee vehicles. Having experienced that before, I can tell you it doesn't feel like much of a victory.

It's a quality of life thing: even if you don't drive, it's not exactly great to find your street being turned into a car pound. Usually with half-empty CPZ streets alongside.

sincers

Some of those CPZ streets are entirely empty.

andy

"A bit"? An Islington permit can cost up to £200 per year. And the administration of visitor's permits are ridiculous. I'd probably resist them less if their administration weren't so incompetent.

ShaunG

On the Haringey side when I had a car it was £60 a year. Concessions got to pay half of that. Visitor permits cost too but not all that much - as long as you go to Wood Green and not Crouch End (where the customer service is laughably incompetent) the admin is fairly slick. Is it really £200 for islington?

dion

And in Islington it is almost impossible to go six months without a visitor being fined. The attendants show no mercy. There are no excuses. Haringey is a bit better.

Ian

As far as I remember Islington had a ridiculous consultation a few years ago - one of their classic three options with first past the post where a and b are close substitutes and c is "put the price up a lot". Amazingly price up a lot won. The argument used was to encourage people to buy hybrid cars by having one category of costs go down, but of course the effect was to ramp up the prices for everyone. Amazingly people are not in a position to change your car retrospectively, which of course they knew before doing the survey. Hopefully we have seen an end of that kind of false consultation following the change of political control.

Papa

Islington's is based on emissions. It was a 'green initiative'. As Ian says the consultation was so biased it would make a banana republic blush. Problem is that if your car is too old to have official emissions figures it goes on engine size. Classic dumb example I remember was from the Islington Council Pravda freesheet and was some bloke with a VW camper van being forced to pay £160 or more a year because of the engine size. (This is nonsensical his car was very green, it was rarely used and had got about 35 years of useful life from it already.) Islington boss made some moronic comment in response that completely missed the point and ignored the justification of the complaint. Islington's parking attendants are a nightmare, they define the term over zealous and now come with the added use of small mopeds to get around on quicker and issue more tickets. The best bit is when Arsenal play a midweek game and people miss the pitiful excuse for signs warning football is on and you see the wardens descend in swarms on the streets. Actually, even better is when that well known north London side Brazil play at the Emirates and people get blanketed with tickets and you have to pay for a visitors' permit for anyone who dares come to see you in a car because Arsenal are pimping out their stadium.

dion

That Brazil game was annoying, it was right down the bottom of the Arsenal website, completely not in date order. So, on reviewing the website for matches, it was very easy to miss the sneaky non-arsenal feature match.

Brodiej

Having seen the streets on the edge of CPZ's i can totally sympathise with Hugh Pear. I admit that i had to "dump" a car there as i couldn't keep it in a permit area when i got a new car (i'm only allowed 1 permit). It stayed there for 9 months, grew moss on it and i eventually got it towed. Sorry to local residents, but thats what the CPZ does.

That said, living in a CPZ comes at a price. Although a permit owner i've received several tickets for misreading signs and going in "business" bays. They're not very different to the normal ones and when in a hurry, the detail is hard to see. As others have said, if you're not an Arsenal fan, its quite hard to know when you can park and if there's a match. Several friends have been victims of this, and while they didn't say it, i could i got blamed for not knowing Arsenal were playing a Carling Cup match against blah blah blah that day.

My biggest issue is with visitor passes. Onky 10 full day passes allowed per YEAR at a cost of £6 each....no more. If a contractor needs to do some work on your house they take the share of your allocation or they pay £300 for a monthly pass (try finding someone who'll accept that cost!). My GF lives in Queens Park, visitor passes are sold for around 50p a day and are given out as and when you need them. Islington Council are a bunch of money grabbing crooks and have NEVER been able to justify their policy even though i've asked them many times.

I HATE PAYING MY COUNCIL TAXES (TO FUND THE PARKING ATTENDANTS), PAYING TO PARK OUTSIDE MY OWN HOUSE EVEN THOUGH I'M A REGISTERED RESIDENT, NOT HAVING THE FLEXIBILITY TO HAVE PEOPLE COME VISIT ME OR DO WORK ON MY HOUSE AND STILL PAYING MORE IN FINES AS A RESIDENT THAN PROBABLY ANYONE VISITING THE BLOODY AREA IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!

I'M NOT AGAINST CPZ'S IN PRINCIPLE, but they should protect and look after the residents they cover, not make them pay through the nose for the service. It isn't working.

.......and relax.

sincers

@Brodiej, I'm afraid I have no sympathy on the moss-growing vehicle story. If you'd have dumped it outside my gaff, I'd have put a brick through your window long before 9 months was out. On the contractor side of things, getting stuff delivered to the house (Haringey side) is ludicrous. If your delivery double parks for 2 minutes to deliver something because your road is clogged with moss-ridden vehicles, they get slapped immediately. The more savvy delivery companies get you to sign a waiver as soon as they pull up, which means you get lumbered with the fine. I reckon if a smart lawyer took this issue to court, they could rightfully sue the council for something - human rights, unfair contracts, restrictive practices or something along these lines - this would set a precedent and get councils across the country to amend their policies. Its just a matter of time and someone with the money and/or backing and drive to see it through.

Brodiej

@Sincers. I wasn't asking for sympathy, i was showing empathy to those it affected. I wasn't doing anything ilegal, paid my car tax, had an MOT, insurance etc. The system meant i couldn't leave it outside my own house legally so had to shift it before i got endless tickets. It was a short term solution which lasted longer than it should have. I'm sorry if it annoyed local residents, but thats how it is...blame the council. I would have hoped that had my car been outside your house and you'd put a brick through it, that every local chav decided to hang around it, torch it, generally be anti-social outside etc......so as well as getting my own back for some criminal activity on your part, i could have claimed the full value on the insurance and gone travelling in south america for 3 months. Thanks for nothing.

Mine got left on Hornsey Lane, which doesn't really have street parking for residents per se as most have their own private areas as do the flats, but nevertheless i was embarassed to have to leave it in such a state.

sincers

I was kinda speaking metaphorically so as to purvey my feelings on the subject. My actual recourse was to report vehicles to the DVLA. This mostly covered untaxed motors, of which there are many; but absolute dustbins and obviously abandoned cars would also fall within the council's remit. I'm not sure moss quite covers it (or did it?!) however, but the frustration in trying to park a car would often result in a very sour end to a weekend away or be very unwelcome after a hard day out on the road. Given the few meters of the pavement serve 4 flats in my building (typical Vic conversion), having said meters hogged for up to 9 months (and there was one dumped there for 6 months) by someone who doesn't live there is enough to make the blood boil. I do a slightly different job now, so the car isn't required and while I used to be a bit of a petrol head, now not having a car has removed almost all the stress from my daily routine. Well done council and CPZ dodgers - job done. It still make me a little angry though.

andy

I find this attitude - getting angry at people doing something perfectly legal and reasonable - really strange. All people are doing is parking their car on the street, where it's perfectly legal and acceptable to do so, because circumstances mean that they can't park nearer to their own house. The idea of 'hogging' places, blood boiling and bricks through windows, for me, speaks to a peculiar sense of entitlement that I simply don't understand.

Arkady

I don’t see what’s so hard to understand. Person A, living a distance away, leaves a car long term near person B’s house in order to avoid paying money to leave it outside there own property. This makes it hard for person A to park near their own house. They therefore feel aggrieved. You may understand the reason for person A’s decision, but it doesn’t stop it being annoying and inconsiderate, legal or otherwise. I think the talk of bricking and destroying is rather extreme, but I guess sincers is being hyperbolic.

Domino

I agree with Andy actually. I usually drive to work in South London once a week when I have meeting that finishes late and park legally near my office. I've started getting hate mail on the windscreen because I think residents assume I'm a commuter driving to the nearby station to get the train. The last note said, 'stop parking here, we're watching you, you've been warned'! Pretty unnerving.

Arkady

No excuse for that kind of threat. I wonder how the inconvenience of having to get public tranport home weighs against the inconvenience that you are subjecting the residents to though. I sold my car when I moved to London, but I can see why people would get peeved.

andy

I don't think it's illegal, unreasonable or inconsiderate to park your car somewhere where you're allowed to park a car.

sincers

Yes 'hyperbolic', that's the word I was looking for. And thank you for your empathy @Arkady. @Andy, I don't really go round putting bricks through windows, and I haven't yet fallen so far that I've taken up my contract killing career. I'm rational, like most people and take steps to avoid confrontation and scenarios that challenge the balance of value over experience; in this case though, getting pissed off EVERY single time I used the car versus the value of ownership led to me changing my behaviour ie. getting rid of the car, cycling to work, using buses, trains, Streetcar etc. on top of the environmental advantages, which I also value heavily. As for a sense of entitlement - I own my ample front garden. Its easily big enough to turn into a front drive; but I feel a sense of community and wouldn't be so selfish as to do this to my neighbours, given the CPZ situation - unlike many others on my road; and the council who are still handing out drop-down permits like they're boiled sweets, contrary to purported policy claims about combating drainage/water run off problems etc. I can't account for me still projecting my 'feelings' about parking when my neighbours can't park anywhere near the house either, but surely its not unreasonable to get upset about this.

Arkady

andy, in many circumstances I'm allowed to call someone a c*nt, it doesn't mean that it is reasonable or considerate of me to do so. The law does not necessarily equal justice.

Brodiej

I don't think its unreasonable to get upset either. Its a poorly thought out policy with very little flexibility, and ultimately people who live in the zones AND outside aren't having much fun with it.

@ Domino. For leaving such a pathetic note (there are ways and means of making a point...threats made over a legal parking space are ridiculous) i would consider renting a monster truck or perhaps a large combine harvester and parking it in the same spot for 2 weeks. Maybe if you had enough bottle, sit in it and rev the engine for a few hours too.

Arkady

Ha ha ha!

andy

I don't feel I've got the crowd behind me on this one, so all I'll say is don't hate the player, hate the game. (I find that Ice-T is often the standout contemporary philosopher on these matters.)

Papa

Getting annoyed with people legitimately parking their car is moronic. Getting annoyed with someone leaving their car somewhere long term is understandable. In both cases, the car is entitled to be there though and the problem of residents not being able to find a space can be traced back to a council's actions. I wish people would rise up against councils on this rather than write spiteful letters and leave them on windscreens. People are entitled to expect to be able to park cars somewhere: councils should be forced to supply a legitimate way of letting them do so, rather than coming up with increasingly convoluted ways to annoy local residents, visitors and those simply coming to an area. The game is definitely hateable. But the Man wants you to hate the players instead, while he grows fat on parking ticket revenue and spite.

sincers

You're right @PapaL and the councils actions can be traced to allowing the spliting of houses into tiny units without a thought for how this will affect the social fabric or infrastructure. I can see that there's a long term problem with supply of property, so when you develop densely, there's not going to be enough parking for everyone. And its not all the council's fault, unless you hold them responsible for inexorable population growth. Its also about housebulding, development of green belt etc. I just wish we could all live in the mountains...at high altitude, and have a parkng space each.

hughpear

Ah yes. Loss of front gardens. Another hateful side effect of CPZs, and even the threat of CPZs.

Never quite understood this response though. It costs an enormous amount to turn your front garden into a parking space and pay the council to drop the kerb, paint the white line, and allow you to drive across the pavement (a practice normally discouraged). All to save a relatively small amount of money each year? Makes no sense, plus you've lost a garden and a buffer zone to the street, and every time you drive away you're telling burglars that you're out.

But despite such downsides, I stick to my starting position: better a CPZ than the hell that is being just outside one.

sincers

I agree. I've never really looked into the costs for aforementioned reasons (I suspect they're significant), but the knowledge that you always have somewhere to park - right outside your home is appealing nonetheless. There are downsides, such as having a dirty engine next to the front bay, or the danger of being blocked in etc. start to outweigh the positives. I now welcome the CPZ as it will start to free the roadside up a bit. You can't fight the Man.