From April,Islington Council Will Fine People For Not Recycling.

Detritus

What is your problem with class?

Does is matter?

So people have money good luck to them

kreuzkav

I have a problem with unbridled privelege. Of course it's natural people will have more than others. But I think it's possible to create a just society, based on ability. I think we're losing that now.

I think the fact that people working in financial instutions claim big amounts of money is so selfish. They think because they shfit vast amounts of capital around the economy that they're vital. What about people in hospitals who save lives (maybe their life)? Should they earn million pound bonuses?


I think wealth should be shared as much as possible. It's the post second world war dream. Social democracy. Why is that not right?

Detritus

No its human nature, if a company will offer there staff big bonuses then they will take them.

I know I would

Its the old argument money will make money

kreuzkav

Yes, but some people look beyond selfish need. I guess I'm stupid but I still have idealism. We're not living in caveman times.

kreuzkav

Curious to know who is behind the alternative IDs. I'm flattered in a way as you've gone to all the trouble. I can't understand why you want to defend rich people, unless your working life depends on them. Even so why are you so defensive of rich people? Surely it's right to spread the wealth. Why not? Why should rich people take all the cake? Greed?

miss annie

I like cake and I'm not rich. To borrow an idea from people far clever than me: I am short so I look up to everybody. What class does that make me?

Arkady

This is the least sophisticated debate about class and redistribution I can ever recall reading.

crispy

On at least 2 occasions I've been stuck behind a bin lorry in the morning, on SHR, opposite the Old Diary.

On both/all of those occasions I've seen the bin chaps putting green, brown and black wheelie bins into the same lorry.

ok I can't actually remember the precise colours (and didn't check the contents, obv), but I DO remember that it looked pretty much like a recycling/non-recycling reunion going on in the lorry.

I hope the fine themselves good n proper.

[Apols for lack of class war comment]

ActionVerb

Fining is apparently a last resort: http://www.islington.gov.uk/environment/rubbishandrecycling/recycling_new/home/compulsory-recycling.asp Before it gets to a fine, they will send round an 'advisor' to make sure you have all the facilities required to enable you to recycle. So the binmen won't be dishing out automatic fines if they find a bit of cardboard in your rubbish. I think we need to wind in the hysteria a tiny bit.

andy

<img width=450 src="http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lidx8e9I6P1qbvq04o1_500.jpg">

Papa

Which brings it neatly back to my question:

Can I call an advisor round and point out to them all the rubbish that ends up strewn over our front garden from those very same recycling boxes by the binmen?

ActionVerb

@Andy - a much needed monday morning chortle. @PapaL - from my dealings with Islington Council in respect of noise complaints, and on the basis on which the Environmental Health Dept would normally operate, one suggestion would be to start a diary listing when the rubbish transgressions occur, with a description, and probably photos if possible. Realistically, you probably wouldn't have the time to do this, and obviously, you shouldn't have to do this in the first place, as the service needs to be acceptable. But the Council won't be able to do a lot without specific information on when & what occurs so they could pick up the specific issues with the appropriate contractors.

miss annie

Andy that's hilarious. Where was it?

Detritus

I just looked in my passport and I am me, nobody else but me. I joined this yesterday and as for needing a number of names no, not going to happen.

Oh and please don't be "flattered" that I have made up a new name to take you to task. As your just wanting to be more inportant that you might well be worth.

Put it this way; imagine this stick, one end has dog poo on it and one end has not, you have hold of the wrong end and might need to wash your hands before dinner.

sg steve

so actionverb - you have read the Islington Council website and believe that the council will send round an advisor to your home to advise you if you have the right facilities to recycle. And you think that's ok? If a patronising, bossy advisor comes round to people's homes saying "we have rummaged through your bin bags and found that you don't recycle do you have the facilities to recycle":people will advise them to F off and mind their own business.Can you imagine Islington Council calling round to the council flats on the six acres estate and the andover estate and telling the residents: 'we've been looking through your bin bags". F off Islington Council. Islington Council might claim its a last resort to issue fines,but we will judge them on what they have done in the past which is dish out fines as a first resort, like when you turn right into Regina Rd from Tollington.
They don't care if you don't live by that junction and don't realise one of their facist cars with a camera is parked their to fine people.Why believe the council when they say "fines are a last resort"?

sg steve

This is from Islington Council website:

From 4 April 2011, you must not throw away anything in the rubbish bin which you can recycle at home using the services the council provides, otherwise you may receive a fine.

The council is sending information to every household in Islington to remind residents what recycling services they have and how to use them. We want to encourage all residents to recycle as much as they can, and give everyone all the information they need to help them recycle.

If someone is not using their recycling service after 4 April, an advisor may visit to make sure they have everything they need to recycle, and to answer any questions. Although recycling advisors can issue fines, they will only do so as a last resort if they are 100% sure that someone has all the information and containers they need to recycle, and are deliberately not recycling.

sg steve

If Islington Council are trying to save money,then why are they sending out letters to everyone in Islington, as they say on their website, telling them how an advisor will be visiting them and potentially fining them if they don't recycle. This is a waste of money by Islington Council.This money should be spent on the elderly not on threats of fines.

At the end of their message on the council website: the bullying threat to come to your home and issue a fine.Islington council are a bunch of creepy control freaks to threaten to come round to elderly people's homes and issue fines. Bullying like this by the council is morally wrong.

sg steve

From Islington Council website: they write that they will go through communal bins at blocks of flats:

If the resident continues not to recycle, a Section 46 notice will be issued. This will inform the resident exactly what they have to do to prevent being fined – in this case, to stop throwing things away which can be recycled at home. The notice will also let the resident know that their rubbish bin may be visually inspected to see if things which could be recycled at home are being thrown away. If the resident is still throwing things away which can be recycled at home, the recycling adviser may issue a fixed penalty notice.

The fixed penalty notice is for £110, reduced to £60 if paid within 10 days.

.......

- Finsbury Park has got some of the poorest residents in the UK and Islington council are threatening them with £110 fine after going throught their bins,of elderly people who live on the tenth floor of the six acres and the andover estate.The Labour Party are doing this: imagine getting a letter from Labour islington council telling you "your rubbish may be visually inspected". F off.

ActionVerb

@sg steve - is it only old people that live in Finsbury Park & Islington? Your continued reference to how the Council is bullying old people seems to be in a rather alarmist Daily Mail-ish (which we all know is a plebian newspaper that none of the middle classes in FP read) fashion. There's no point second guessing how this will work in practice. To me, this seems to be very similar to the letters that we used to get as students from the TV License authority while at halls of residence. There were always threats of inspections and large fines, which never materialised and none of us ended up buying a license. They are encouraging residents, through potential fines, to recycle. There's enough 'may' and 'if' statements on the Council's website for me not worry about this actually going ahead.

sg steve

Actionverb - you have totally missed the point.
This is about a point of principle. There will be mentally ill people, or elderly people with certain medical or psycological conditions who will be worrying that if they don't put the right kind of rubbish into their black bags they will be fined;because people who are ill worry about things like this.This worry might be not a fair reflection of the truth if the council never fine anyone,but the threat of the fine is the thing that the council are doing to make people worry when they put rubbish out. The council's threat of a fine will put these anxious thoughts into the minds of some of the most vulnerable people in Islington borough.
It's nothing to do with the daily mail,it's a serious moral point of principle about how Labour Islington Council treats vulnerable people in their borough. Actionverb you might not worry - maybe you are able bodied person in good mental and physical health who does not live on the tenth floor of a tower block on the six acres or andover estates.Have some empathy for others who aren't in good health.
You can judge a Labour council by how they treat the most vulnerable people in their borough and they have got this one wrong.
Recycling is obviously good thing as it saves the council money - that's not the issue.It's about principles, morality,right and wrong.
If you want to turn this into a class debate about daily mail then thats not really what this is about.Or some cr-p about id names.

andy

Your arguments are about the difficulties vulnerable people face when coming into contact with all sorts of services.

A vulnerable person could have trouble paying their council tax, or signing up for a GP, or getting their kids into school. You could argue whether the support they get is enough or not, but it's not really about recycling one way or another.

Also, as a side note, "discussion boards" are about "discussion". 5 really long posts in a row, all making essentially the same point, won't win anyone to your cause, however right you think it is. People don't listen to rants.

Arkady

Hang on, your saying that when enacting new laws for the public good a show-stopping consideration is whether or not mentally ill people will worry about forgetting to obey it, regardless of the actualy likelihood of their prosecution? No, sorry. That could and does apply to any law, from not being allowed to punch someone in the face to not pissing on the pavement.

andy

@Arkady - I guess that's a slightly more direct way of making a similar point.

Arkady

Yes, I wouldn't have bothered had your post already been there when I started typing. But comparing my post with yours has taught me something about tact. Whether that knowledge will lead to change remains to be seen, as you probably suspect already.

sincers

There appears to be a combination of fury over Islington parking fines, along with opposition to stick-imposed bye-laws. @sg steve, I sympathize with the fury. Islington, like other parking offices are staffed by godless creatures and they're all going to hell. The recycling debate again brings up the carrot and stick approach to influencing behaviour. The majority of the community now willingly recycles, and go out of there way to do so, but is now necessary for councils to go a step further in order to meet environmental targets. Just like London failing pollution limits. To meet them, people will have to change their behaviour and this will be uncomfortable for some; but you'd have to agree that its very necessary. I'm sure that there are contingencies for those who cannot more easily comply with whats being asked, but carrots don't work, so stick it is. What I'd like to see more of is the stick applied to businesses and their obscene packaging.

sg steve

A story in The Evening Standard, today, about this issue.

The council are saying that they will fine you for not recycling food in some cases. See the islington council website.

But they are not going to fine businesses,I think.

sg steve

Arkady and andy are saying: I'm not complaining about people being threatened with a fine if say they play music too loud for example. So why complain about threat of fines for recycling?

I've forgotten what the philosophical argument is to this one. Maybe someone could help out. You start with a premis,then something else, then a conclusion,I have forgotten how you do those philosophical arguments. Prefer an after lunch rant - much more cathartic.

sg steve

argument for threatening giving fines for playing loud music

1.premis: loud music causes distress to neighbours who complained
2. distress of neighbours outweighs the distress of threat of the fine
3.conclusion - fine is justified

argument for not threatening giving fines for not recycling;

1. premis : not recycling does not cause distress to neighbours.
2. distress of threat of fine outweighs damage not recycling causes
3.conclusion fine not justified

maybe a philosophy student could do some philosophical arguments on this theme to express it better or a guardian jouranlist! ho ho ho

andy - on "new park for area" thread you dont complain about multiple posts,rightly so,its a good thread.Double standards,maybe you should get a job with control freak islington council andy - issue a few fines to skint pensioners in tower blocks on the six acres -join the jack book brigage at islington council .

sg steve

sincers -you are being naive as your write "i am sure there will be contingencies for those who cant more easily comply". Why make these assumptions sincers - we know what islington council do they hit us hard with council tax etc - why naively assume that they will make contingencies when they havent even started fining us until 4th April. Wake up and stop assuming things when you have no evidence to back up your arguments apart from what Islington council propaganda say on their website and in their propaganda free sheet called "islington today".If the council wanted to save money they dont need to produce this free newspaper employing journalists to write it etc and deliver it to everyone 5 times a year its a waste of money.

Andy - I am discussing points people brought up,so shove off if you cant debate. If people dont like this thread then how come so many people commented? Just because you run this forum don't mean you can boss us around like the authorities do at islington council,power has gone to their heads and power corrupts and they turned into control freaks. Are you being a control freak Andy as u run this forum,u are entitled to your opinion though.

Arkady

Steve. You're referring to casuistry. The problem with your use of it is is that not recycling *does* harm others. This is well established. As with most causes of environmental degredation it may not be an immediate cause of distress, but in the long run it will bite individuals and society in the ass. Even if you personally do not think that environmental degradation is happening, or that recycling will help stop it, the fact is that the EU will fine us a hell of a lot of money if we don't meet the recycling targets that we have collectively set and signed up to. I would rather that people who *do not* recycle are sanctioned than that we *all are*. A PS - being rude to Andy is quite ineffective. Take it from someone who knows.