Moving to Stroud Green - recommendations please!

checkski

One of my Nijinskis was supposed to be Rimsky (Korsakov). Slip of the pen. Cherry-picking? You really are impossible,

checkski

<P>....Janez. I'll be back tomorrow, with many more names, and EVIDENCE, to show that you are talking rubbish, as usual.</P> <P>----------------------------------------</P> <P> </P> <P>Christ, I find this new format difficult to write in. Is it really my laptop's fault, as Andy says?</P>

Siolae

<P>@checkski evidence doesn't tend to apply. It is a bit like explaining Proust to a recalcitrant teenage dobermann. They just bark loudly and pointlessly.  A certain character from Sheridan's The Rival's springs to mind.</P>

checkski

<P>ROTFL! [Is that right?]. Although a bit unfair, perhaps, if the obfuscation derives from English not being Mrs Malaprop's first language - but it doesn't, does it?</P> <P>Back later.</P>

Brodiej

If i clicked on this thread and read all these awesome comments about Russians and Poles, i'd probably change my mind about moving to Stroud Green.

Stella

Bwahahahaha Bodiej.<br><br>Now that had me laughing. <br>

janez

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">@Brodiej, excellent. </font><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">...and especially about sending a child to a local school, with such parents as me and with such teachers as checkski. )))</font></div>

Mirandola

<P>@janez, I meant more that there is a long and ugly tradition (which I very much doubt you want to be associated with) of accusing people of not being really English/American'German/Italian/take your pick because they are also Jewish.  </P>

JaneDoe

@woolly I am surprised by your description of Tollington Park.  I have lived both at The Hornsey Road end and in the middle and I loved it!  Both flats were set back a bit from the road but I never noticed the traffic.  It only seemed to get really busy at rush hour.  I never had anyone popping up in my garden or stealing from my bins and I always feel safe walking home at night along there because there are usually people around.<br>

janez

Mirandola, there is nothing wrong for Stravinsky to be of Polish origin, and equally for Trotsky to be a Jew. Both may have defined themselves as Russians, no problem. I am talking about surnames, and a surname does not change origin (Polish or Jewish) because of a person's attachment to some other culture. <div><br></div><div>Ok, back to watching an amine film with two Englishmen - McAlister and O'Leary. Who, basically, cares.</div>

checkski

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Vigotsky,Zaslavskaya (feminine version of –ski), Zilkovski. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">I am down the far end of the orchard, aka Chambers Biographical Dictionary, picking cherries at random. Let’s move to the middle.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Koussevitsky, Kovalsky,Lissitzky.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">That’ll do. There are plainly enough Russian cherryskis in this orchard to satisfy even the great Tchekhov(ski). <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Ski is a common ending in general, eg for nationalities. Many of us on SG.org are angliskii (masculine plural, as far as I remember). Janez is polskaya. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>All the above are russkii. Why am I doing this?<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">I looked up Stravinsky. His origins are mixed. The Polish-Russian border has changed enormously, over time. Most of his forebears were from Byelorus, which is in </SPAN><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Russia</SPAN></st1:place></st1:country-region><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"> these days. Stravinsky was Russian. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">So was Nijinski. His parents were Polish, so perhaps we’ll toss that one to Janez. She can top her fruitcake with it. He was born in </SPAN><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Lvov</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">, I think, and liked to consider himself Polish, but spoke it badly.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Arkady got it right. Ski is common to the whole area, and, I imagine, to all the Slavonic languages. <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Enough. I have no more time for dobermenskis. As it happens, re-reading Proust is one of my tasks, for the summer. I’ll try it in French this time. No doubt Janez will be back with her theories. He was half Jewish, you know – on his mother’s side, so before you start, Proust is not a Jewish name. Either way, he was 100% French. I too noticed that Janez seemed to imply that Jews have no nationality, but – I’m off.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>

Brodiej

Congratulations on naming lots of people. For your efforts i will give you a 2:2.

janez

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Fabulous. Not only is statistical evidence dismissed one more time (can we expect understanding of percentages from a local school teacher, judging by the exam performance of local schools? hmm, thing to ponder), but even anecdotal ones are not being properly checked. Again Jews with Yiddish surnames Vygotsky and Koussevitsky are presented as "evidence". </font><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Your attempts to pigeon-hole me in your squared cells of limited life experience keep amusing me. I am not Polish. In fact, we arrived from Asia, the family changed four countries over three generations (hi five to rainbow-carnation). I started to learn English after the age of 30, and was OVERWHELMED with your comments "sorry, if you are not a native speaker". Other comments, attributing me to the States, were quite puzzling, but still pleasing. </font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">On Proust. Oh dear. I read that <a href="http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/02/01/47-arts-degrees/">white people</a> use fiction of dead authors as Polynesians use bones in pierced noses - to claim high social status. I am really impressed by the fact that the perceived satire turned out to be documentary.</font></div></div>

Mirandola

I feel like a broken record, but one last time: being Jewish does not make you any less Russian.  Or German, or Polish. Or English. Or Scottish.

JoeV

<P>@janez -- people asked if you are American because you write using American, not British spelling. </P>

miss annie

<p>Actually that's not why I asked.</p><p>By the way @janez, 'Stuff White People Like' ceases to be as funny when you find out that it's a white chap that writes it.</p>

gardener-joe

... just nod and smile ...

Idoru

Ok, I give up. Try as I might I can't see what this has got to do with moving to Stroud Green. Maybe someone could explain?<br>

harpistic

Personally, I think this thread should be renamed to "lengthy discussion about acceptable Eastern European surname suffixes", and moved to a "completely irrelevant" category.... <br>

janez

Mirandola, what about being Irish? Does it make you less English? Does it work in opposite direction - does being Palestinian makes you less Jewish? These are all separate entities - nationality, ethnicity, self-attribution, and we are just talking about different things. On self-attribution level you are absolutely right. Perfect example would be Americans - you can be American from the day 1 after arrival, if you wish so, on the top of your origin. But why anyone should have problems with admitting that Frank Sobotka has Polish surname?

janez

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">JoeV, I should check the settings of the spellchecker then.</font>

janez

Annie, when the author was giving lecture at LSE a couple of years ago, the auditorium (of all colours) was crying from laughter, believe me.

miss annie

Really? It's a very 'Portland' take on things.

miss annie

<p>I have not yet met an Irish person who would declare themselves to be English! I think you are (possibly deliberately) missing the point about Jewishness but I really can't be faffed to discuss it. Please let me be clear, this is not because I agree with you but because I think that you are only persisting to get a reaction.</p>

andy

This thread makes me wince. Mirandola has made a very sensible, important point, twice. It should not really need pointing out that defining Jewishness as "otherness", such as "not Russian" has led to some Very Bad Things. So people tend to be sensitive about it. It's almost certainly inadvertent, but also right that you are picked up on it. That is the start and the finish of the point being made. The thing to do now would be to apologise for inadvertently offending anyone.

janez

Well, I am really missing point about what is special with Jewishness, and feel as Mirandola tries to persuade me that Jews are different from Poles, Tatars, Ukrainians, Greeks or Kazakhs in their right to be Russians. Also I am not persisting but finding ways to reconcile positions, while lots of people contradicting just for the sake of contradiction (no pointing though, everyone is having their own fun). 

janez

Andy, start treating Jews as any other people, and you will stop feeling discomfort when someone calls a Jew a Jew to define ethnicity. It is not a swear word, and I am very sorry if you think it is. I am also sorry that you missed my statement well above that I am not challenging self-definition and talking about surnames.<div><br></div><div>It is hard to believe that this land gave to the world Lewis Carroll and his Symbolic Logic.</div><div><br></div><div>Mr Akintola lives in England, his only language is English. His surname is not English, but Yoruba, because his parents were Yoruba<span style="font-size: 10pt; ">. </span></div><div>Mr Stravinsky lives in Russia, his only language is Russian. <span style="font-size: 10pt; ">His surname is not Russian, but Polish, because his parents were Polish.</span></div><div>Mr Koussevitsky lives in Russia, his only language is Russian. <span style="font-size: 10pt; ">His surname is not Russian, but Jewish, because his parents were Jews.</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt; "><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">Why should anybody feel discomfort at the last sentence? </span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt; "><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">PS. BTW, do you feel that people should apologise if they advertently offend someone through dehumanisation, say, through calling a person a dog, because Very Bad Things have happened after myriads of cases of dehumanisation? </span></div>

Mirandola

<div>Thanks Andy.</div><div><br></div>@janez.<div><br></div><div>Try googling 'dual loyalty'. That should give you an inkling of why this is a sensitive matter. Warning: it also takes you straight to some vile corners of the web. </div><div><br></div><div>It would be wonderful if I (or Andy) could cancel out the history of anti-semitism (and racism, and sexism, and homophobia) just by being nice and open-minded. It just doesn't work that way. </div>

janez

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">"Try googling". A local tries to enlighten a migrant on sensitivity of issues related to belonging/not belonging to a title ethnicity. So generous. I thought that nothing will surprise me here after an accusation of being Polish combined with a lecture on Polish/Russian surname split.</font><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">"I or Andy being nice and open-minded". Highly-intellectual, impeccably-moral and humble-as-monk as well, I presume. Basically, it is me who talks about Jews open-mindedly, without dragging Anti-Semitism in every sentence, treating Jews equally with other nations, giving clear disclaimers about what aspect of "otherness" is the subject of conversation (linguistic one). In vain. No chance for even acknowledgement of the difference in subject matters. </div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">Predictably, no comments on dehumanisation (as an essential element of racism, and sexism, and homophobia). Seems, SG's Human Rights Watch is comfortably blind in one eye and because of that is just a bit selective. </div>

Mirandola

<div>Look, you are naive if you think you can write things like 'sticky Arabs' (in an earlier thread) and '<span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: small; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; ">lots of so-called "Russians" are actually Jews' without making people wince. </span><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: small; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; "> </span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: small; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; "><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: small; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; ">Those phrases, and phrases like them, have been used so widely in racist discourse that you (and I, and Andy) can't decontaminate them by saying 'I am open-minded and good and therefore it's okay.' </span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: small; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; "><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: small; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; ">Also, why do you think I'm not a migrant? </span></div>