Finsbury Park Station Upgrade

conformable_kate

Bees find the way back by dancing, of course. (Oh, they're female too ...)<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

Donna

So what's the answer...?<div><ul class="DataList MessageList Discussion FirstPage" style="margin: 0px 0px 1px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 18px; font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; vertical-align: baseline; list-style: none; line-height: 30.25px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><li class="Item Comment Mine Alt" id="Comment_58372" style="margin: 0px; padding: 10px 4px 4px 10px; border-width: 0px 0px 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; list-style: none; position: relative;"><div class="Comment" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;"><div class="Message" style="margin: 8px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; clear: both; line-height: 25px; word-wrap: break-word;"><p style="margin: 8px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; line-height: 1.6em;">Will there be step free access to the tube platforms but you will have to go in a new entrance? Will that new entrance connect to wells terrace?</p></div></div></li><li class="Item Comment" id="Comment_58375" style="margin: 0px; padding: 10px 4px 4px 10px; border-width: 0px 0px 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; list-style: none; position: relative;"><div class="Comment" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;"></div></li></ul></div>

miss annie

The answers are in the link provided in the first post Donna.

Arkady

Yes, there will be step free access to the underground (but not to national rail), via two lifts.<br><br>Those lifts will be in a passageway running parallel with the existing one containing the four flights of steps down to the tube.  The new passageway (which already partly exists but is disused except for storage) will start at the existing national rail entrance on Station Place and break through to the Wells Terrace passageway just north of the existing T-junction (the one with the litle one-man staff shelter thingy).<br><br>The diagram here will help: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/finsbury-park-brochure.pdf<br>;

gardener-joe

breakthrough just north, or do you mean just west/north-west?

kreuzkav

Whatever the compass point of Wells Terrace, anything that makes the tunnel of doom a bit less of a long march would be appreciated.

Donna

Thanks Arkady and miss Annie. Am so excited. My baby will be almost three then so still in the buggy and it will be great to be able to go places like the science museum more easily.

krappyrubsnif

So - where will the entrance to the National Rail station be?    I hear that in about 3-4 years time the rail station will be upgraded with more platforms to allow for direct trains service to Gatwick Airport - in fact, that's the work going on now.    Won't there be confusion if they double up the rail entrance with the tube?<br>

Arkady

The current entrance on Station Place will remain, but you will also be able to take a shortcut via the new entance into the Wells Terrace tunnel.  On that new entrance I assume that there will be a sign saying 'no entrance to London Underground except via lifts' or similar.<br><br>As I understand it, the new platforms at Finsbury Park (and Ally Pally) are not for Thameslink, but for additional services between Hertford North and Moorgate via Bowes Park, etc. (but these won't stop at Harringay & Hornsey).<br><br>The new 'Gatwick Airport' service is Thameslink, which will take over most of the Welwyn Garden City services (which <i>do </i>stop at Harringay & Hornsey).  In fact the ones from our neck of the woods won't follow the main Thameslink route to Brighton via London Bridge and Gatwick. Rather, they will go to Elephant & Castle, and then split for destinations as yet unknown (Wimbledon and Maidstone East are mentioned). This is because they will be maximum 8-car trains, and only the 12-car ones will go on the longer routes between Bedford & Brighton and Peterborough & Horsham. <br><br>In other words, you will need to change trains between St Pancras and Blackfriars to go to Gatwick, but using the same platform and it will only be a brief wait.  <br><br>This diagram is speculative and at a poor resolution, but gives a reasonable impression: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mackenzieblu/8239189782/sizes/c/in/photostream/<br>;

lucyabcde

Why are the no ticket barriers at FP anyway? Have there ever been any? I always wonder why it's like that.<div><br></div><div>also, are there any other stations with no barriers between which you could theoretically travel for free (if you were eg a criminal mastermind)? </div>

Arkady

There's currently insufficient room for a sufficiently wide gateline - it would cause massive tailbacks.  They plan to fix that by widening the Wells Terrace entrance building.<br><br>Lots of national rail stations are unmanned, as is the DLR, though they have more ticket inspectors.  Finsbury Park is far and away the largest and busiest ungated station.<br>

Sutent

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">At least the upgrade will allow me to overtake the hordes of romantic couples that decide to hold hands in the morning and block the tunnel. The ticket barrier may mean they have to let go of each others hands to get through. </font><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Thanks Arkady for the update</font></div>

Arkady

Hard to believe, but there is some even more exciting train news today: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21333361<br><br>Congratulations to anyone who owns property anywhere near Turnpike Lane or Ally Pally.<br>

Sutent

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">I am really gutted they haven't decided to have a stop at Finsbury Park. It is an important interchange for trains coming from Hertfordshire and Cambridge. Finsbury Park also got overlooked on the overground extension too. </font>

Arkady

Alas, that was never going to happen.  Finsbury Park couldn't handle another line without a complete rebuild.  The purpose of Crossrail is 1) to relieve the central section of the Victoria Line 2) to connect SW London with Hackney to spur regeneration there.<br><br>This scheme achieves that.  By having a branch connecting with Ally Pally it will take a lot of the East Coast Mainline and Northern City Line traffic away from Finsbury Park Station and the Victoria & Picadilly Lines, making things nicer for us.<br>

yagamuffin

Apart from looking more direct on the map is this going to offer vast improvements over what the existing London Overground provides?

Arkady

I don't think they are comparable.  <br><br>London Overground is an orbital route mostly in zone 2 & 3.  This is another radial route through central London, connecting to suburban services beyond.  The only stations it shares with Overground will be Clapham Junction, Dalston and Hackney. They have a completely different purpose.<br>

Ali

<P>By having a branch connecting with Ally Pally it will take a lot of the East Coast Mainline  How does that work, will there be a Tunnel to KXs to avoid FP.</P> <P>Is Parkland Walk safe in all this ?</P>

miss annie

Still no transport improvements for the poor old South East Londoners. I feel a bit sorry for them.

Arkady

@ MissAnnie: South East Londoners will beneft from Thameslink improvements, and the Bakerloo Line extension in time.<br><br>@Ali: The idea is that many Northern City and ECML passengers will transfer onto the (bigger, longer, perhaps faster) Crossrail 2 trains at Ally Pally, rather than interchanging at FP or KX.  There will be precisely the same number of stops between Ally Pally & KX via Crossrail 2 as via the existing suburban services, and every one of those stops will be a useful interchange (as opposed to suburban stops like Harringay & Hornsey).  There would be more stops on C2 as compared to non-stopping ECML services from  Peterborough & Cambridge, but the interchanges onto the Vic/Pic at Seven Sisters/Wood Green would be much less stressful.  Which is good news for FP & KX.<br><br>Alas, I can't see the Parkland Walk having track restored.  The curves are probably too tight for a modern rail link, and a metro probably wouldn't be cost-effective.  And people would whinge.<br><br>

NorthNineteen

The TfL looked in a fair bit of detail on from Kings Cross to Alexandra Palace via either Finsbury Park or Seven Sisters/Turnpike Lane.  They haven't worked up detailed designs for Ally Pally station but I'd suspect the station will be reconstructed to give the option for more services to stop there, although I suspect the faster ECML trains would only stop there if HS2 Phase 2 is built.<br><br>While both routes relieved crowding on the Victoria and Pic lines, it was only the Seven Sisters route that introduced new connectivity options.  Hence why it was selected.<br><br>The route will go in a tunnel from Ally Pally - Turnpike Lane - Seven Sisters - Dalston Junction.<br><br><br>

Ali

<P>Is this not just one of two options the other one being an autmatic Metro based on the Chelsea Hakney Line.</P> <P> </P> <P>One of the assumptions behind this is that there  wil be an additional 750k jobs in London hence the need to get people to them. Looks like London  will become even greater cf the rest of England</P>

NorthNineteen

I think this is now the only option (recommended option). In early 2012 they whittled it down to the two above options and I presume now is recommended.

Arkady

The job figures are based on predicted population growth.<br><br>The Metro option won't happen, no way no how.  Tunnelling is relatively inexpensive now, it's stations that cost the big money.  The cost savings involved in drilling a tube line rather than full-gauge railway is minimal, but the additional capacity of full-gauge is enormous.  In addition, full-gauge can be connected to existing suburban services (as with Crossrail 1).<br><br>Tube lines will never be profitable and will always require subsidy.  Mainline gauge can theoretically turn a profit and return money back to the exchequer.  We will never see a new tube-gauge railway in London, only extensions to the existing ones.<br>

yagamuffin

Money back to the exchequer? You mean money back to the shareholders of the foreign company running the railway? Let's not kid ourselves, these will be privately run.

Arkady

I know very little about franchising, but presumably if a franchise turns a profit a percentage of that profit goes to the exchequer rather than shareholders?<br>

Ali

Has Network Rail ever made a profit ?  That is where the costs are

Arkady

As a whole, no, partly due to decades of underinvestment.  Some individual lines do.  One of Christian Wolmar's books goes on about this at some length if I recall correctly.<br>

Arkady

I just remembered - I'm pretty sure that Crossrail 1 will be under TFL control rather than a private franchise, so one would expect Crossrail 2 to be too.<br>

Ali

The TfL model seems to be working quite well with the Overground