Pedestrianising Charter Court ('Stroud Green Square')

Papa

@krappy, we need a boules / petanque court

krappyrubsnif

@Papa L Perfect!

Mirandola

That would be awesome.

Mirandola

I was wondering if the nice people at Davies and Davies might be interested in sponsoring the works. 

krappyrubsnif

Lots of potential sponsors.

trainspotter

That funding source looks good *mirandola* if we can get a proposal into shape in time.  I think we could generate support.

krappyrubsnif

<span style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal;">I think Fin is completely on the money here:</span><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; font-style: normal;"><br></div><blockquote style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div><p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(85, 85, 85); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 20px; margin-top: 0px !important;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Does anyone have the skill set, and of course time, to put together a formal proposal and costings? That has to be the next step in order to have a chance of getting this done!</span></p></div><div><p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(85, 85, 85); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 20px; margin-bottom: 0px !important;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Would the council accept/approve a private funded initiative?</span></p><p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(85, 85, 85); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 20px; margin-bottom: 0px !important;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><br></span></p></div></blockquote><span style="color: rgb(85, 85, 85); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 20px;">That's the crux of it.  It's great if the council and perhaps some local shopkeepers have been talking about it among themselves (though you'd have thought they might have mentioned something on here, or asked for local opinion), but the talk might go on for ages and nothing will actually happen unless there's some independent pressure.   As Arkady said, it needs a neighbourhood group, or a little committee of some sort who will draw up a plan and push for this.        And a few people with the relevant skill set.    </span><span style="color: rgb(85, 85, 85); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 20px;">Councillors have lots of other stuff to worry about. </span><span style="color: rgb(85, 85, 85); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 20px;"> Who's out there?</span><br><br>

maclondon

putting in a proposal to the GLA fund is a good idea. thinking about it again, we could just do something temporary by closing off the road, buying some outdoor chairs, pot plants, etc and test it for 3 months or so (like summer) - theni if it has legs, apply for something permanent where proper paving, reconfiguring the layout and traffic junction would then be done. NYC did this at some horrendus traffic hotspots like Times and Herald Square before doing something more permanent. doing an experiment also helps with possible objectors. we probably should sit down over a beer and talk through the options?

dorothy

I think the temporary idea is a better one.   <div><br></div><div>Normally to obtain capital funding you need to own or have a lease on the land.   It would cost upwards £150,000 to dig up that bit of road and pavement and repave, brick it, cobble it or whatever.   There's the drains to consider and all the various professional costs.  The council wouldn't let anyone else do the work unless they were commissioned  properly and they would want to use materials from their own existing palette, because they will need to maintain it.   I don't think it would be a priority for funders either.   There might be more mileage in a group supporting the project with consultation and some extra twiddly bits like planting, benches, trees, art installation, bike racks or other stuff.    </div><div><br></div><div>If we could get the road closed, it would end up being used in all sorts of ways and pressure could be put on the council to landscape it when it comes round to planned maintenance works.  We could try to hurry them up with it and get them to take on board local consultation that was done or insist they worked with a local steering group.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>   </div>

Agaton Sax

I agree, would be good to set up a space that's not about traffic, and the Vagabond orbit has a certain momentum to it - but it's a relatively small space for a street market. Feel that Finsbury Park is a bit under-utilised for this. If a crappy funfair can set up down the Seven Sisters Road end, why not a lot of street food carts and vans, like KERB outfit?<br>

miss annie

Transition Finsbury Park do loads of gardening stuff and all kinds of other things in the Park, might be good to contact them.

Peter Crumb

What is the space used for currently? Is it an official taxi rank? I've always seen it as a pointless waste of space.

miss annie

Isn't it an access road for the shops and flats? For deliveries, emergency vehicles etc.

krappyrubsnif

By one of those blessed coincidences I bumped into a quantity surveyor in a local pub last night, who lives locally, works for a charity and has done lots of this kind of thing. He estimated the cost of this job at £80,000 to £100,000, and gave me a full run down on the steps necessary to achieve it (with grant aid and support from local business community). He thought it would be perfectly achievable if councillors and locals are in favour. I suggested he sign up to this group and contribute his expertise to this discussion. He would also be willing to lead a real question and answer session for anyone interested locally some time in the future (ie over a drink or a coffee). Watch this space! Another 'venture capitalist' in the same discussion put the cost at £200,000, but I prefer to believe the surveyor.

gardener-joe

...

krappyrubsnif

Great idea, @G-J

NorthNineteen

Having worked on numerous public realm schemes I'd say at a minimum you'd be looking at £100k.  And then it all comes down to materials, to get something hi-spec with electricity etc. for a potential market, new street furniture, high quality paving and street trees you could be looking at up to £500k.  Next time I'm walking past I'll have a look in more detail.

kreuzkav

Sadly, I think NorthNineteen is right about the cost.  As I mentioned in another thread people often underestimate building costs.  It's not just slabs of concrete but these projects often require lots of other intricacies.  <div><br></div><div>But the dream can become reality with a bit of tenacity.<div><br></div><div>I never thought a certain bar would close down and it did.</div><div>And Well's Terrace closure has been postponed.  </div><div><br></div><div>Keep on, keeping on!</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>

maclondon

agree that costs for a proper scheme would be in excess of £500k, particulalry if utilities would need to be moved and you would probably redo the junction with Tollington Park at the same time. However, a temporary closure over the summer with some pot plants, outdoor furniture would be far less - link it with weekly events like farmers markets, festivals, etc and we can test it and demonstrate whether a permanent scheme is a good idea. I too have worked up similar, if larger schemes (not in Harringey). We should draft something up, do a quick survey of local residents/businesses and push our councillors hard on this. We can do this!

krappyrubsnif

I fail to grasp why closing a stretch of road and putting down flags also has to involve redesigning the whole junction, digging up all the sewers and electric cables and whatever - but I guess I'm just being naive. Anyway, the temporary summer thing sounds a very good idea. Yes!

NorthNineteen

Temporary uses of streets was one of the key recommendations of The Mayors independently created Roads Task Force!

trainspotter

There was also a redesign of the square where West Green Road meets Black Boy Lane (I think) in our very own Haringey, which has made a noticeable difference  and presumably plans and costs exist for it.  I agree with *krappy* that it is hard to see why total redesign of sewers etc would be necessary. 

Mirandola

These things always seem to cost far more than one would think, but I'm with trainspotter and krappy that it's hard to see why you'd need to redesign sewers. 

maclondon

Once you start repaying you tend to trigger utility relocations as they tend to say the assets under the road are 'at risk'. It is a bit of farce but the way of the UK today which is why a temp solution to test the idea before spending any real money. Given the Labour councils view on public services it is probably the only way to get their chequebook out!

Papa

<div>Closing it temporarily, getting a little market, food stall thing going and sticking some pot plants etc out over the summer seems a very doable idea.</div><div><br></div><div>Then if it doesn't work, it just goes back to being a side road.</div><div><br></div>The key to getting it closed temporarily would be support from the shopkeepers and local residents, ie Charter Court.<div>They need to be convinced of two things, </div><div><br></div><div>1. It will be nicer and benefit them and not a nuisance</div><div>2. There will be enough space to park somewhere else.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm sure in this instance both those things are true. The support would be needed before any application was made.</div><div>Presumably this would require the setting up of some form of group and then a public meeting.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

Fin

<p>Thanks Krappy!</p><p>Great that we're now getting some costing ideas come back. If we can get someone qualified to put together a formal proposal on the process, timings and costings, get a working document if you like then we can really look to push this forward.</p>

Luirette

Before you all go ahead and pave over that little road I'd like to point out that it is the ONLY place in the SG shopping area which has a disabled parking space. This is where I park when I need to go to the post office. Without that space or that little road I would not be able to get to the post office. Please think about that all you lucky able-bodied people happily strolling around. There is a shocking lack of disabled parking facilities in SG. So far the council seems completely uninterested in doing anything about that but I certainly hope they would protect that one little parking space there is left.

trainspotter

*Luirette* I am sorry to hear the provision is so rubbish - presumably you'd be happy if the Council relocated the space to the opposite side of the road though?

miss annie

Where on the opposite side? The parking space is there because there is nowhere on that stretch of SGR for parking, buses need to use the road. Vagabond side of SGR is Haringey, Tesco side is Islington. Good luck with getting them to work together! I agree that it would look prettier but who really wants to sit outside at the corner of two quite busy, dirty roads when there is massive park two minutes round the corner?

conformable_kate

On SGR there are loading spaces just past the zebra crossing, and then metered parking - all on the Islington side. Then there are spaces at the foot of Osborne Rd in Haringey. Any of these would in theory be convertible, I should think, but as miss annie says getting councils to work together is a headache. I agree it's absolutely something that would need to be sorted out for this plan to go ahead, and it does complicate the possibility of a short-term test. <div><br></div><div>On the other hand the lack of disabled spaces in general is very poor - if that's the only one it's not at all adequate. So there might be an opportunity to press for an increase in spaces at the same time.</div><div><br></div><div>As for who wants to sit there - look at the outside tables at Vagabond, and the Italian opposite whose name I can't remember. (Do you know, Pappagone has google absolutely stitched up.) There are plenty of people who are happy to pass the time on busy roads.</div>