Pro EU March 9th September. Don't forget, get out on the streets and march for the EU

Ali

Well this all kicks off again shortly.

https://peoplesmarch4eu.org/the-event/

You can buy a massive EU flag for a fiver on Amazon so order now to get it in time

A short video in the nonsense of all this.

http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/in/mailings/3085/attachments/original/email_thumbnail.png?1503671467

grenners

@Ali more people voted for Brexit than to stay in the EU. Although it doesn't surprise me that remainers want to subvert democracy the EU is after all anti democratic, the cause of potential conflict as it competes with NATO and follows a bizarre imperialist expansionist agenda (Turkey Ukraine), causes serious economic imbalances Greece and Italy, fuels excessive migration (there has been no economic growth in Italy for 20 yrs) and fails to deal with the "refugee" crisis (African economic migrants) which is in turn increasing the risk of terrorism on European soil, meddles in all sorts of little details which bear no importance to anyone from the design of car number plates to whether we can still buy packs of 10 cigarettes or not, bullies other member states who have elected their governments to carry out their mandate, ignores the people of countries who do vote in referendums (Dutch referendum on Ukraine), does all sorts of good things by thing us back some of the money we have to them which bizarrely means it goes to the wrong place.

I know what you are going to say Ali. The pound is at its lowest ever and the banks are leaving. If you want to be controlled by Goldman Sachs lobbyists vote EU.

People's march is doublethink.

HolbornFox

Don't worry about the pound for God's sake, go crypto.

Love that the first speaker is a fashion designer.

Ali

Brexit has been good for jobs ! But that is in Frankfurt which so far will gain 83,000 jobs that would have been in or would have been in London

grenners

Like we don't have enough bankers.

HolbornFox

People also underestimate how shit Frankfurt is, and yes I have worked there.

"Will gain"? I'm not even massively pro and i wonder who made that figure up...

Ali

https://www.google.es/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-to-deliver-eu-jobs-boom-with-80000-new-positions-predicted-in-frankfurt-a7912576.html?amp

https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://metro.co.uk/2017/08/25/brexit-will-create-80000-new-jobs-in-germany-6878591/amp/&ved=0ahUKEwi0vKutvffVAhVKXBoKHU7CCXAQFggxMAE&usg=AFQjCNF_jx-3HGWPB07TszsCe3V81w6zpA&ampcf=1

https://www.libdems.org.uk/80k-jobs-frankfurt-humiliation-for-boris

I would be interested to know what the EU has done to car number plates? Not heard that one before

HolbornFox

Ok so a lobby group made it up, cheers.

Ali

Grenners. Democracy didn't stop on the day of the Brexit vote. People are surely allowed to change their minds as the facts on what leaving actually mean to the well being of each and every person in the UK..

It sounds to me that you may be deaf to what is likely to happen especially with the current government trying to negotiate a deal driven by there need to stop their party splitting. That worry is obvious in the fantasies as to the UK position in the papers they have been publishing.

If and when a deal is agreed it has to be agreed by every one of the 27 countries and then voted on in each parliament

Fat chance of the UK being in better position post Brexit.

Please answer a question. Is the £350m a week for the NHS promised on the red bus and Boris the truth or a lie?

grenners

I thought that bit on the side where it says Gb and ring of stars in blue. Look, you know they do pointless stuff they even made sure passports are burgundy. There are people in offices dreaming that stuff up it's endless and seemingly harmless but a good example of the centralised controlling culture which they are trying to expand.

Ali I am referring to the EU being anti democracy. It's actually democracy that came alive on the day on brexit in the UK. And if we have the vote again then maybe it will be on the back of a better deal for the UK which they wouldn't give Cameron when he tried to get one.

Red bus. We pay more to the EU than we get back. Some people voted for the EU because they were scared they would lose money by project fear thats all.

Yes has to be agreed by Merkel plus the 27 countries. This is why we have to leave as that fact alone is ridiculous and why Britain will not get what it needs in the EU. If the deal is no good we will not pay the brexit bill and simply leave. But it's not as far fetched as you think. If a deal is not doable then the EU has failed.

There is a model of European cooperation that allows for different countries to operate differently. There is no need to have one government, one currency, one army. There is no need to have complete centralised control about every detail of our lives.

Less government. More freedom.

Ali

Well you seem not to be prepared to answer the question re the £350m as the NHS really needs this money. Why not ?

This is also interesting

https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21726728-health-terrorism-and-poverty-replace-migration-publics-main-worries-britons-mellow

Nearly 75 % of the UK are not happy with the direction the government is taking the UK.

You can see why the Tories are trying to ram this through.

The only possible good thing I can see about it is that UK companies will have to improve productivity as cheap eastern European labour will not be allowed. Apparently it cost approx £250k to buy a robot strawberry machine

grenners

Ali the bus thing was ridiculous but there was ridiculous on both sides.

Tories ram through? You mean follow through on the will of the people like actually do what people voted for? Anyway regarding details I'm not sure where we are heading yet, seems certain things may be watered down, I can't say I'm happy about that, for all we know there could be another general election before leaving. The EU need our money and they are bullies so they will make it tough for us. It's a lot more burdensome on the other members once we have gone. Greece could leave. Italy in my opinion could be a shock. Eastern European nations are in complete shock that Merkel can unilaterally allow 1m refugees into Germany and then demand to other nations via EU regulations that they take their fare share? Poland are ready to go to court over it. That sort of thing doesn't help bind nations together.

We can dish out as many work visas for fruit picking or working in the NHS as we like once we have control. We can make the decisions.

Ali

So it was alright to completely mislead people about the National Health and it seems to be difficult to admit it was either the truth or a lie used very effectively used by Boris. Where are the 72 million Turks that are supposed to turn up. Green Lanes is not big enough. Was that the truth or a lie?

Germany has an old population and is short of younger tax paying people.

Greece will not leave the EU and even if it did it is only about 2% of the EU GDP.

Italy is a fully democratic country. It's problem is that it has weak coalition government who will not rationalise it's banks it has too many and they need to deal with it nothing to do with the EU. Berlisconi is on his way back at 81!

gardener-joe

...

grenners

@gardener-joe that's a very good point. It is presumably political and related to political correctness. Until recently the mere mention of the word immigration would potentially be followed by the word racism or xenophobia in the same debate. That has now subsided but to tackle detail on non-eu immigration could be political suicide.
The statistics themselves are an issue in that there are students, workers and those on family visas. Recent changes have included more stringent language checks and a minimum salary for bringing a wife.
I agree entirely that the assumption is that our government will manage this properly and I think people are fully aware of that being doubtful but combined with the EU problems things got so out of hand it became a serious issue. So non-EU issues do get scapegoated onto the EU but they do share the blame.
No different in Germany as Merkel has been forced to say that asylum seekers who take a holiday in their home country! will not get German residency. Presumably that wasn't already a rule!? But that's ok @Ali as Germany needs more workers and I'm sure non of them have anything to do with IS and will integrate perfectly into the Schengen zone.
Immigration is necessary for our country but complete unchecked immigration to the extent of a small town arriving every year is dangerous.
Immigration should be based on skills and whether someone comes from Romania or Australia should be irrelevant. This is impossible to deal with in the EU.

Ali

It is possible to control immigration from the EU and benefits as well. It is just that UK government's have never used the powers available in Freedom of Movement and newspapers such as the Daily Wail have forgotten to mention this.

https://brexit853.wordpress.com/2016/09/27/powers-that-the-uk-has-failed-to-use-to-control-eu-freedom-of-movement-directive/

grenners

That's true but Tony Blair and Labour were in power. Tony Blair is a lunatic and war criminal who is coming back to politics to fight Brexit and is off to see his old friend Juncker. That guy is seriously bad and is probably being paid to do this by some shady sources. He has a kind of God complex and if he doesnt get shot maybe he will end up in an asylum.

Ali

I suppose it is possible hat Jacob Rees Might might be the next PM.

grenners

I hope so. Might put some common sense back into the place. Anyone who has 7 kids and openly admits to never having changed a nappy has got to be doing something right. I'm drowning in nappies.

Scruffy

Love that @HolbornFox wrote "Love that the first speaker is a fashion designer."

conformable_kate

@grenners . 'Anyone who has 7 kids and openly admits to never having changed a nappy has got to be doing something right...' Seriously? Not to be heavy handed but might you have men in mind here? Someone is changing the damn nappies ...

grenners

@conformable_kate he has come in a time machine from 1923 to save us. Nanny changes the nappies. Even his wife is too posh for that. He uses the same nanny that brought him up. He even toured Fife with his nanny when campaigning for that seat.

grenners

@conformable_kate the guy is ludicrously posh and not in the slightest bit apologetic for it. The guy seems to be genuine when he says he has not changed a nappy. I believe him. Most politicians would think that they would have to pretend to be the modern man but not him. I don't knock people who are genuine. Maybe too posh to be electable but Trump is president so anything can happen.

Ali

Seems like the BBC have started to report that up to 100,000 jobs are likely to be on the move from London to Frankfurt. What about all the other jobs that will go in places like restaurant s and services that these people will have used won't need these people that would have been going that
It is not bankers that get hit lots of little people as well. I read in the FT that the Maybit is off to Japan looking for trade deals fat chance of that as Japan will want a deal with the EU first and their companies will be looking to relocate and EU HQs in the UK back in the EU.

One strange thing is that this actually happens the UK will probably the first country to enter trade talks looking to increase the barriers to what is already available. Mad really

eerke

I don't think Tony Blair is being paid to do this, as that suggests someone somewhere thinks he might be a successful purchase. I don't think even he is that delusional.

Hardly anyone trust politicians at all and even fewer from the general population trust Mr 45 minutes, let alone the 52% of the 72% turnout (37%) who voted Brexit. If anything I think Blair vocally backing remain is likely to have the opposite effect. He's selfishly trying to weaken the link in the history books between him and the Iraq War disaster. Nothing altruistic about it.

Realistically, it does not matter how vocal remainers get or how many marches they go on, as they already supported remain. When the oncoming disaster hits us what matters is who the Brexit voters blame. My guess is they just blame everyone else and make up more nonsense about sovereignty and democracy, ignoring the unelected head of state, unelected House of Lords, corrupt party funding, cheating at elections, massive UK media bias and how rubbish First Past The Post is at delivering representative democracy.

When Cameron stupidly planned the referendum he abdondoned all control to chaos and all we can do is wait for the crash.

Scruffy

Rees-Mogg is genuine alright; a genuine fraud. Anyone who gets caught plagiarising from The Sun (The Sun, if you please!)…

If he were true to the traditional values he purports to hold, he would have withdrawn from public life altogether rather than merely apologise.

grenners

Lots of people on here waiting for some kind of economic disaster. We don't leave until 2019. The gloves are only just starting to come off lets see who has the best negotiators! UK was a net donor of 14bn, slightly behind Germany, to the EU according to biased BBC and France was net donor of only 6bn. So if we do not pay, and I understand that's legally questionable whether we have to then the other countries need to make up the difference. Basically someone has to sort this out politically and say to Merkel look if you want a divorce payment you have to compromise on trade talks etc.

Arkady

It's less 'waiting' for it than expecting it, in line with the overwhelming majority of predictions, if there is a cliff edge in 2019. We don't have even close to the required infrastructure to fall back on WTO rules.

You're right to imply that if we fail to agree a figure to pay off our obligations then we won't get a trade deal, but that would be overwhelmingly worse for us than for the EU, and the EU knows it. It's becoming increasingly clear just how bad our hand is.

An off-the-peg the EEC/EEA option is, and has always been, the only economically tolerable form of Brexit. If May wasn't so dependent on the rabid deregulating free-traders like Fox then doubtless that's what we would be going for. But alas, we're trapped in yet another internal Tory struggle.

grenners

I think the position is that the UK is prepared to pay what it is legally obliged to pay. No doubt the detail is incredibly complicated and there are legal arguments before arguments over figures. I read that the EU refuses to offset assets against liabilities. Anyway it will take a horse deal to sort it out in the end. Hopefully they will not keep us tangled up for too long afterwards. There has to be a form of flexibility from the EU rather than setting a timetable for what order things can be discussed.

Arkady

"has to be" - no, they can do what they want, because they hold the better cards, and the timetable has been agreed by 27 countries verses our one. As it happens I agree that might not be the most sensible timetable, but it's up to them.

The 'tangled up for too long afterwards" question is the interesting one. If we want barrier-free access to the Single Market we will have to continue to mirror its standards and will not have the flexibility to change them that the Brexiters originally promised. That in turn will massively limit our ability to sign new trade deals, as we won't be able to offer a change in standards or mutual recognition of the standards of countries that do not meet EU rules. That is the lesson of the negotiations so far, confirmed by our ineffectual flirting with the Japanese, and even reflected in the government's own white papers on the subject. We will have no new meaningful 'control' worth having, and will no longer have a say on the Single Market rules we are compelled to follow. We will have lost sovereignty, not gained it.

Other than Fox, the government themselves are pretty much accepting that now, while attempting to use language that disguises the climb-down.

Ali

I thought I heard Hague blaming the UK electorate for the situation we are in because they decided they didn't like what they heard at the last election and to the Maybot's majority. The Tories really don't which and what way to turn and the great British public are shafted by Tories on fighting try again !