People's Referendum March

Brodiej

I'm not being funny, but it appears that the number one reason for people to not back brexit is almost always financial. I don't think there's much emotional attachment to it, its just about how individuals wealth might be affected. If someone asked a leaver if they thought it was worth a £2k drop in income to be in control and get what they wanted, they'd probably say yes. It was an emotional vote for 52% of people, who probably don't give a toss about all the stuff remain voters raise as a consequence.

Ali

The impact of loosing £2k depends on how you earn. What needs to be considered is the impact of lost tax base and the impact of that on public services eg education, National Health and so on. Every £ lost in the economy has a much greater loss over time due to the recycling multiplying effect to what will have happened if it had not been lost. I see Khan has been giving evidence at a brexit committee today. He thinks 10 k jobs will go. If you say that someone earns £125k in the city taking a recycling multiplying effect of say 8, 1 million £s are lost. That is tax base lost for ever. Multiplying that by 10k job losses gets you to £10,000,000,000 tax base gone for ever never to be recoverable. The job moves to EU do does the pay and all the benefits. This is very serious stuff which is just getting ignored or not understood

Arkady

As Ali implies, the size of the economy is what allows individuals and the state to do all the things we want/need to do. But it's certainly not the only or even the number one reason to support the EU for me. In an increasingly globalised world and civilisation it's the only transnational democracy that we've got, and we shouldn't be abandoning it or the rights that go with it.

trainspotter

I have very many emotional attachments to the EU, which I didn't realise were so strong till I actually entered what felt very much like grief post-referendum. A few of them were:

A world without borders and the possibilities this opens up in all aspects of life, both here and abroad;
Frictionless co-operation contributing to scientific advancement;
Peace and stability - trade forcing diplomatic solutions to issues that could otherwise lead to military conflict;
Actual influence on the global stage as part of a united front leading to the possibility of actual progress on Human Rights and the environment;
A general feeling that we were making advances towards unity and tolerance, rather than retreating and putting defences up. I feel straitjacketed by a concept of nationality I don't identify with.

I very much see the referendum result as an attack on these core values and it hurts like hell. That we're all going to be skint and unable to dig ourselves out of the austerity rut just pours more misery on top. I don't think I'm alone. The grief analogy is one I've seen expressed by many. It's generally scorned and dismissed as "remoaning".

Arkady

"A general feeling that we were making advances towards unity and tolerance, rather than retreating and putting defences up. I feel straitjacketed by a concept of nationality I don't identify with"

This - a thousand times this.

Ali

I'll multiply that by 10. Sign the People's Vote petition link above. It is over 150 so far

Brodiej

I had no idea that my role in life was to create more tax. Forget Brexit, that's ruined my evening.

miss annie

One of the most baffling things to me is that pro Leave people are all for dropping human rights. I just don't understand.

grenners

You trust the EU to do a better job on human rights than the UK? Not all human rights comes from EU law and in any event EU law will be replicated when the UK leaves but the UK can change it if it so wishes. The European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) has nothing to do with the EU and therefore the UK will remain signed up to that post Brexit. I just don't understand where you get the idea that leavers are not for human rights?

Arkady

There are definitely people who don't believe in the concept of human rights as opposed to national rights. And numerous politicans have advocated leaving the ECHR, indeed it was Theresa May's expreased policy until last year. It's no good just translating transnational law into national law where it can be diluted or poorly enforced- an international enforcement mechanism is the very point.

.https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-conservatives-uk-withdraw-european-court-human-rights-eu-pledge-general-election-a7705166.html?amp

miss annie

There are many people who think human rights are too extensive. It often gets conflated with immigration concerns - right to remain, adding family members, asylum seekers been given instant and extensive access to NHS - which it seems to me was a primary concern of Leave people.

trainspotter

Yes, Strasbourg and Luxembourg courts are different, though often confused, but the same arguments are often used against both - an objection to outside "interference" in national decision-making in the legislative and judicial spheres. But in a Human Rights context that interference, and our legislature's commitment to its international obligations, are the protections for the individual against the State. A domestic regime, especially within the UK constitution where Parliament is supreme, can always be overridden by the legislature, which reflects the majority view. A lot of people want that - but it is a much more precarious system from the perspective of individual rights. Personally I think it's pretty embarrassing that as a relatively wealthy Western democracy we find what is a pretty basic Human Rights treaty so hard to comply with.

trainspotter

The point of a supranational court in other fields is similarly important for individual and collective protection. Take employment rights for example. Yes, we could replicate or even increase European employment rights domestically. But there's competing pressure to increase the competitiveness of our exports. Only through international harmonisation can we be sure of avoiding a race to the bottom.

And environmentally, it's a bit like the diesel arguments we were having the other day. I have a car. I should sell it, but I won't see any improvements in air quality unless others do the same - so I want that collective agreement before I'm willing to forego the convenience of car ownership, which I'm in principle in favour of.

We live in a global world and are co-dependent on other countries. Leaving the EU does not make this less so, it just makes it harder for us to influence the things that will impact on us, or to ensure there is action where it is needed.

Ali

Trainspotter. You comment about the Human Rights Act reminded be of a speech made by May where she supported scrapping the Human Rights Act. You might remember trying to ridicule it by saying an illegal immigrant cannot deported because he had a cat. It was 2011 when she was Tory Party Chairwoman. Proven to be a another lie

N19lurker

Anyone going to the march on 20th October? https://www.peoples-vote.uk/march Feeling frustrated about the looming Brexit car-crash so will be attending.

Arkady

Sadly I have to miss this one. I'll be at a Star Trek convention. I know that sounds like a made-up excuse, but it's not.
.

dion

Grandad grandad where were you on the day of the Great People's Vote March?

tosscat

We'll all live long and prosper, obvs.

Arkady

I plan to attach some yellow stars to my blue science officer's tunic.

Papa

The Star Trek convention may do a better job of negotiating Brexit on both sides.

While you are there, could you nominate one team for Britain and one for the EU and see if they come up with a decent plan?

Arkady

They're mostly Federalists to be honest. #trekjokes

Ali

If you believe in staying in Europe you must get on the March the next one will be after we have left. It is timed to take place right in the middle of the end game for the negotiations so please do try and get to it. It is only a couple of hours of effort.

Ali

Get onto the march it is important your voice is heard if want a People's vote. Full instructions on the cover of tonight's Standard

N19lurker

Today's Evening Standard also featuring the march prominently. Whilst Osborne has his own agenda, I've not seen this much interest prior to a demonstration from mainstream media since the anti Iraq war demonstrations over 15 years ago, so could be a big turnout.

Ali

It will be all over tonight's Edition. Get on down there for maximum impact. It's going to be a nice day as well

Ali

700,000 people on the march. Brilliant speeches at the end

Ali

For those who couldn't make it

N19lurker

Attended the march today - was v good natured, with a lot of families and kids in attendance. Really got an appreciation of the numbers there when we crossed the route of the march to get across Piccadilly to head back at nearly 4pm when we could see the march was still going strong with hordes of people still coming through. At that stage we could tell we were in the hundreds of thousands. Today gave a glimmer of hope at least against the depressing hard Brexit agenda dominated by Rees Mogg and his chums.

trainspotter

The BBC reported 700,000 in the report I read. You can see how busy it was in the aerial photos. I'm not sure what the question on the referendum should be, I don't think it was a suitable question for a referendum the first time round without a clearly articulated alternative. People voted leave for a lot of different reasons, some more legitimate than others, and probably had very different views of what the alternative should look like. But I don't want to leave, so I was there to show that my views on that have not changed. I think a country is entitled to change its mind. The voting population is different than it was in 2016 but people who couldn't vote in 2016 are the ones who have to live with the long term impact.

Papa

I support a vote on the deal, but there should be no reverse the referendum and Remain option.

They could be better articulated but I'd be for these options

1. Take the deal and leave
2. The deal's not right. Go back and get a better deal and we don't leave until that passes option 1
3. Leave with no deal

Mind you, I would be mildly worried by the 'push the big red button' temptation leading to option 3 winning.