Islington North Goes to the Polls! Which Way are You Going to Go



  • I rather like this electoral analogy: “Voting is not like saying yes to the perfect life partner - ah, love - it’s a far more mundane choice, like getting a bus. If there isn’t one that’s going exactly to your destination you don’t sit at home and sulk, you take the one that’s going to the nearest place you want to be”.
  • That is a good analogy, but as a Jew I feel a little bit with Labour like I'd have to sit at the back.
  • This election is way more important than those considerations. Gotta see the bigger picture at some point to move forward.
  • Move forward from institutional racism. Yeh okay.
  • @LukeG I thought you were anti hyperbole?
  • JC is miles ahead in the polls

    You can check for each seat
  • edited November 2019
    @cmo Labour is the only party other than the BNP that's been investigated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission (which you can't really call a right-wing organisation); if that's not proof enough? Labour should rightfully be embarrassed by it, and yet even Corbyn can't bring himself to apologise.

    And yeh obviously the cons come across as anti-Muslim, but the pot calling the kettle black doesn't make it any any-better for supposed anti-fascists.
  • @LukeG Do you think they are institutionally racist?
  • Will probably continue trying to avoid answering that one.
  • @adrienbe I'm not seeing any evidence from labour about why Jews should just 'move on' from this.

    @cmo you'll need to prove to me how it's not hyperbole, it's at least not far from the truth - clearly the EHRC thinks there's an 'institutional' problem, otherwise they'd be investigating individuals and not the party itself right? Or is this anti-antisemitism thing just some right-wing conspiracy?

    I mean I don't want it to be true, but as someone who's very sensitive about this conversation due to my own background, when you've got the leader of a mainstream party constantly trying to downplay the issue within their own party, then you're left wondering wtf?
  • edited November 2019
    I was talking to a Jewish person recently about this.

    For context he was a teacher and i am, well, a drunken fox.

    He immediately said Labour & JC are antisemitic and anti Jewish to which i said that despite being a non-labour supporter i do not actually believe that. Surely they are the antithesis of everything involving racism / prejudice.

    I totally believe Labour are anti-Israel but that is very different to institutional racism and it is ridiculous to point that accusation at JC.

    He actually did agree with this but went on to say that there are waves of anti-Jewish feelings out there and it has to stem from somewhere, whether it is entirely down to Labour stoking the fire or not it is definitely occurring and Labour are definitely getting the blame.

    It was interesting to get the feelings of someone that is in the unfortunate firing line and where the blame is being squarely laid despite knowing it does not make perfect sense, it seems to me that the Tory's have taken Labour at their own game and found a victim to use against them.

    I asked him if he had received any grief for being Jewish and the answer was no.
  • For what it's worth and of course, these are just opinions...

    100% there are anti-semites on the left, idiots who to generalise, confuse Israel and its policies with all Jewish people or hold some tinpot theory of Zionism that doesn't chime with reality. The proof is clear.

    Equally, there are idiots on the right with their own fascistic views.

    Turns out, there are idiots across the political spectrum.

    What is also true, in my opinion, is that politicians weaponise the abuse of people to serve their own purposes. Netanyahu has pushed the idea that to criticise Israel it to be anti-semitic, a ridiculous idea but politically advantageous for him.

    The conservatives while ignoring their own long standing issues with race, also catalyse the genuine pain of people for their own political purposes.

    By no means am I diminishing people's response to anti-semitic views, anti-semitism is rife, Jews have every reason to be vigilant - it exists. But what also exists is a group of people using their pain and amplifying the risk.

    As a small and possibly unnecessary addition, my Father's family are Jewish. I'm incredibly sensitive to anti-semitism and call it out when I see it. What I don't see, is the entire Institution of the labour party as an inherently racist body. That seems hyperbolic to me.

  • edited November 2019
    I don't know if the entire institution of the Labour party is antisemitic, but as an institution it took an agonisingly long time to recognise that there was a problem, and even longer to start addressing it properly rather than just mouthing that they are opposed to "all forms of racism". The antisemitism of the left is different from that of the right and more insidious, and I think that a lot of people in Labour, particularly around (and including) JC, simply can't (or don't want to) recognise it.

    Even now many on the left of the party deny that there is an issue, and insist that it is all being invented to smear the socialist agenda. It doesn't feel like one would have to press very hard to get the answer as to who they think it is being invented by - in many cases, it's Israel, financiers, global capitalists, etc, i.e., they fall back on antisemitic tropes.

    It's deeply depressing. I say this as a Jewish Labour party member. I find many of the current policies worthy of support, but I don't think JC is a good leader, or a good politician, and for someone who has been battling prejudice all his life, while he may not himself be antisemitic he has an awful lot of friends and allies who are.

    On balance, I'd still rather have a Labour government under him than Conservatives under Johnson. I believe that Corbyn has a genuine desire to improve society; Johnson has a genuine desire to improve his own position, and that's about the best you can say about him.
  • @therattle I don't disagree. The way the whole thing has been handled is shocking. It should of been a quick expulsion in every circumstance of anti-semitism and a very quick and forthright statement on what the values of the party are, specifically to Judaism.

    I voted for Jeremy for leader of the party and I don't regret it, it was him or Andy Burnham but, he's not right (for the leader of the party) for multiple reasons, even though as you say, he's preferable to Boris as PM.

    How many weeks to go?
  • Thanks. Yeah. Even his handling of the question of an apology with Andrew Neil was simply bad politics. If he has already apologised, then just apologise again and put the issue to bed, rather than have it blow up yet again and overshadow a very meaningful news item about the US and NHS. The media are primed to pick up on any hint of controversy around the subject, so why give them any ammo? It's a combination of rigidity and self-righteousness, coupled with a lack of tactical nous. I just don't think he's that bright. I am much more impressed by John McDonnell, actually, who got the seriousness of the issue much more quickly, and responded appropriately. Even if he didn't mean it he started saying the rights things a lot sooner than JC did. (Although too late too).
  • For anyone interested in a well-thought out opinion on the "anti-semitism row", I'd really urge you to take a few moments to read this even-handed analysis:

    The main take-away is how the media has misrepresented much. This is so dangerous for any semblance of democracy.
  • While not a conspiracy theorist, there is also merit that the powers that be are indeed scared of Corbyn, and it clearly isn't because of antisemitism or the good of the hoi polloi.
  • Latest ipso-MORI polling of leader popularity shows Corbyn having the lowest satisfaction rate since these figures were collated - Johnson has better figures but not by all that much. For those who want to see the table:
  • rikki, this is another well-thought-out opinion - exhaustive and I think pretty even-handed, which comes to a rather different conclusion. It is well worth reading.

    I have voted Green (postal vote) as I know Corbyn is going to win here but I want to show that Green issues matter. Despite the anti-semitism issue (and I do believe that it is real), if I was in a marginal, I'd swallow my reservations and vote Labour (or Lib Dem, SNP, Plaid Cymru, Green etc) to keep the Conservatives out.
  • thanks @therattle - i tried. but admit i only got about halfway.

    earlier, sara gibbs says that after searching hard, she can find no evidence that corbyn has tried to engage with left-wing Israeli groups, let alone right-wing, and then later on in her examination of his history, she links to a C4 interview, where he talks directly about meeting with right-wing representatives in Israel. kind of undermines her earlier claim of forensic searching, and i gave up at that point.

    i don't believe he is remotely anti-semitic, he has never used anti-semitic tropes, and his very valid criticism of successive Israeli administrations has been labelled by a sophisticated Israeli psyops operation as anti-semitic, backed up by a UK press owned by right-wing billionaires who don't pay tax but might have to if he gains power (and before anyone says I'm using a trope, I'd point out that not all these right-wing billionaires are Jewish, so I'm not troping here).

    I'd recommend you search out Al-Jazeera's 'The Lobby' series on YouTube for incontrovertible evidence on the Israeli operation against labour. Amazingly, the Panorama episode that 'exposed' anti-semitism in the Labour Party had some of the same characters in it as in The Lobby. The difference was that in The Lobby, they were openly boasting about smearing Labour, but in the Panorama they were gently and tearfully describing the anti-semitic abuse they'd received. You just couldn't make this shit up, and it was a shocking low for BBC investigative journalism to be hoodwinked so easily.

    meanwhile, i've got £50 on labour gaining most seats, so please vote for them. as a committed anarchist, i'm in it purely as a financial speculation and whomever you vote for, the government gets in. though if i did live in a marginal, my desire not to see the NHS sold, might just persuade me to go to the ballot box for the first time in 42 years.
  • seems to me, rikki, if you don't want to engage in the democratic process, your opinions are of little value. Its all we've got, use your vote.
  • i engage daily in the democratic process, and i am striving towards creating an accountable and trusted media, and the introduction of sortition-based citizen's assemblies. i'm not sure how casting a vote in a constituency which is bound to elect corbyn is of any value to anyone, but thanks for your opinion on the matter.

    i'd question whether the act of marking a box with an X (which may or may not have the slightest effect on which of two parties you end up with) maybe a couple of dozen times in your whole life, makes your opinion that much more valuable than mine.
  • omg...

    'Sortition is the use of random selection to populate assemblies or fill political positions'

    listen to yourself..we have the most important election in decades coming up, get real and engage properly.
  • Ah, the age old conflict between the urgent and the important. Thing is, if we took the time to implement things that are important but not urgent, like proportional representation, popular assemblies, federalism and so on, then we might find that the urgent issues were finally dealt with properly.
  • Remember, vote early and vote often.

    Unless you're a Tory. Then your polling day is tomorrow
  • Is 'an accountable and trusted media' controlled by the state?

    It often seems to be, when that's put forward. Mr Corbyn seems a big fan of that.

    Not saying yours is, but very interested as to how you think it could be achieved.
  • @AtomGallery we're clearly polls apart :) You might want to look into both the history of sortition and the many many recent successful uses of it worldwide before dismissing it out of hand. i can assure you i've 'got real' and realised that present systems are simply not addressing the needs of either the people or the planet, and i don't see how putting an X in a box in corbyn's constituency is any sort of real engagement with the issues at stake.

    @Papa i have a dream re journalism. imagine 100,000 interested citizens paying just £5 a month to fund an independent online platform. that would pay for 24 Laura Kuensbergs, or nearer 100 PROPER journalists. their editorial line could be the chomsky/orwell reminder, that journalism is holding the rich and powerful to account (all else is PR). there are many good jorunalsist out there who would love to write and investigate freely. some of the Guardian's investigative team that was disbanded after the Wikileaks affair and the intervention from the security forces, for instance. there's good journalists at the FT, even at the Times. those 100,000 citizens contributing could also make suggestions for topics and areas to shine a light - we already have state-controlled media - its pre-election coverage this time has been the most shameful ever - i'm not sure that corbyn has suggested going down those lines - i think he's into providing more finance to encourage independent and citizen-led journalism - we'll see.
  • Congratulations to our very own @markpack, who has just been elected president of the Liberal Democrats. God knows they need a steady hand just at the moment.
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