Primary School nightmare

janez

All the state secondaries in the area are trash, to be honest. I know families on our street who moved out when the children got closer to leaving primary. Maybe, these schools are doing great job with children from poor backgrounds, enabling, integrating, <strike>harnessing</strike>, promoting, but if you expect from a school a bit more than basic reading and arithmetic, they are definitely not the schools to go. 

checkski

What a stupid, self-centred, immature response.

boxrunner

@janez: isn't the point that because so many financially-moble families *don't* send their kids to local schools, the schools suffer from lack of diversity, and local parent invovlement?  In other words, they go downhill because parents don't send their kids there, not the other way round?<br>

gardener-joe

@janez ... the more I learn of your worldview the more I appreciate my own.

Detritus

Well, I'm from a family that was definitely not financially mobile and went to a normal, state school in Leeds, and I was accepted to and did my degrees at  Cambridge.

Mills

Someone upthread mentioned Pooles Park having a poor Ofsted. Not sure where you're getting your info from. Recent (last year) Ofsted was good with outstanding features thanks very much! It's a lovely school with some great teachers. Oh and the governors are all ace (yes, you guessed...)

Mills

Incidentally - we are considering moving the child INTO IAMS from her terrible school in Brighton where she lives with her mum. I have a lot of time for the head (I did my PGCE with her) and I know some of the teachers who actually are very positive about the school. There were fights like the one mentioned above at my secondary school abroad that had a 97% A-C rate. Kids can be horrible.

Siolae

@janez, what you are saying is absolute rubbish.  There are very good secondary schools in the borough, Mount Carmel, St Aloysius (both of which happily take non-catholics) and Highbury Fields are all great.  Behaviour inside all three schools is excellent.  No matter where you are teenagers behave atrociously on the street.  Their behaviour on the street is not a reflection of what goes on inside the classrooms.  The problem the schools encounter is the issue of "people like us": middle class parents who are concerned that their kids will mix with the "wrong sort", if they go to these schools, so they export them out of borough. To be honest that says a lot more about their parenting skills than anything else.  Frankly my dealings with the more middle class schools out of borough have given me much more cause for concern than our local schools which don't have rampant drink / drug / anorexia issues...

Ali

Checkski  Never mentioned anything about an academy, facts are facts<div><br></div><div> IAMS results have been consistently been  poor for a  long time with some recent improvement, I guess is just the catchment area estates  that it serves.  It scores quite well in value add which is related pulling up the failing pupils that they receive from primary schools so they are definitely helping lots of kids to do better than they otherwise would but I would doubt many excel, it would be interesting to know how many kids form there end up at Russell Group Unis?<div><br></div><div>Siolae, Highbury Fields reinforces what I said about having daughters as it is a girls school</div></div>

andy

I'm not sure it's true that "teenagers behave atrociously on the street" wherever you are.

miss annie

Quite. Teenagers in Rock (Cornwall) are, by and large the braying, Jack Wills attired, spawn of 'people like us' and their behaviour is often pretty grim. The teenagers I come across in my bit of SG, lower west side, near the Andover estate not the posh bit are, in my experience, fine. The problems Siolae describes at the end of her post are rife in the nice, high achieving schools of Hampstead where my pals' kids go.

janez

<div>@box runner: What kind of diversity and parent involvement would slow down staff turnover? It is just a nature of location, you can not do much about it.</div><div><br></div>@Siolae, the "very good, all great" schools you mentioned are all below national average in GCSE tables. Children there behave well? Good for them, but it is exactly what I am talking about - if your expectations from a school are higher than "they do not stub each other there", it is hard to meet such expectations here. What the schools are interested in is D/C borderline, major efforts are there. And if your child gets As, it is absolutely not interesting for them, if s/he slides to B or being stretched to A*.  

boxrunner

@janez. Experience does not bear out what you say.  My Dad was parent governor at my Secondary School whilst I was there.  He was amongst a group of highly educated, very motivated, successful professionals who chose to get involved in the management of our inner city state comprehensive.  This group executed a systematic review of each department at the school, promoting best practice, identifying weaknesses, listening and engaging with both teachers and pupils and listening to those on the ground before making recommendations on how the school's SMT should be supporting teachers to fill gaps and reward excellence.<br><br>Yes of course there is high turnover of teachers in inner cities, but that turnover reduced at my school as staff satisfaction levels rose.  <br><br>Diversity in the classroom presents challenges for teachers but it also greatly assist them as students learn from each other and the role of the teacher shifts to facilitator as much as it is instructor.<br>

Siolae

@janez.  All of the 3 schools I mentioned were above national average in 2011. 

janez

@Sionae Maybe, something's changed in the 3 years since I was selecting the school. Those days all Islington was below, apart from just opened St Mary Magdalane academy, for which there were no stats yet.<div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/jan/26/secondary-school-league-tables-2011-map">Let's check 2011</a>, Mount Carmel. </div><div>5 A*-C GCSEs - 75%</div><div>5 A*-C GCSEs including Maths and English - 53%</div><div><br></div><div>National average for 2011</div><div>5 A*-C GCSEs - 78% </div><div>5 A*-C GCSEs including Maths and English - 58% </div><div><br></div><div>Seems there were no much change.</div>

janez

@box runner: I do not quite catch how existence of a good inner city school contradicts the statement that for a quality secondary here you need either go indie or move out. <div><br></div><div>Furthermore, moving to good grammar area seems for me quite a rational option compared to becoming a voluntary governor and promoting, ensuring, listening, engaging, motivating, supporting and rewarding school's salaried professionals.</div>

Jo Homan

Hi, both my kids go to Parkwood Primary, just over the border in Hackney. It's a single form entry school and there's such a great atmosphere there. I volunteer with reading in the reception class and there is undoubtedly a high number of EAL kids there. However, because of the way they teach, the school is second in the country (or something crazy) for the added value score. They got outstanding in their last Ofsted. Main thing for me though, as an ex teacher, is the lovely vibe you get. Everyone knows everyone else and it feels like a  community all of its own. Headteacher has worked at the school since 1969 when it opened and there's a really stable staff. <br>However, entry into the school is oversubscribed. Because of the high mobility in N4, there's often gaps higher up in the school, so a good school for people to consider with slightly older kids. <br>

checkski

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">The last two posts demonstrate two ways of being a middle class parent. I have worked in many schools, and the vast majority were predominantly working class in character, but some had a small cohort of wealthier families. Most of these were there because they believed, like Jo H, that being part of the community is more important than any other consideration. One or two were me-firstist, and the parents were in there every other day banging on the table, and <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>demanding their perceived rights. As far as I am aware, all of the children <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>did well, and went on to university, as did many of the poorer children, but with one vital difference: attitude. The Jo H group grew up with a strong belief in the big society (what a pity such a good phrase was coined by such a nasty bunch of people!); the Janez kids (I’m thinking of one in particular) grew up thinking the world belonged to them, and that to get value you had to pay for it. They had a vast contempt for the welfare state, or what’s left of it, and for those who depend on it. As, <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>apparently, does Janez. And, for all I know, as do her children. I hope I never meet any of them.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>

Mills

@Jo - sounds similar to Poole's Park, which also has a very high added value score, although is not yet outstanding at Ofsted. <div><br></div><div>It's exactly what Chekski says - the difference between 'me first' and thinking about society and the community. Do we really want to continue to perpetuate this 'me above all others' attitude? It's given us ridiculous %120 mortgages, resulted in the sell off of masses of social housing, helps keep some inner city areas woefully poor, is creating a litigious culture like the states - and on and on. Sorry for soapboxing but it's important! </div>

checkski

Well said, Mills. Re Poole's Park: I believe there is some excellent volunteering at the place generally, not just at governor level... (wink, wink). Seriously though, it's great to hear such positive stuff about a school serving some of the poorest and most diverse communities in the area, or indeed North London. generally  Janez and her kind will no doubt be giving the place a wide berth, for that reason. More's the pity - or is it??

rainbow_carnage

For the past two years, I've taught weekly workshops at a secondary school in Hackney. It's one of the better academies. Out of a class of 20 students aged 11-16, only two could read fluently. The rest read word-by-word. <br><br>The school has its share of behaviour problems, but most of the kids are lovely. There are some great teachers, too. But would I ever send my kids to a school where 90% of the students cannot read? Hell no. I don't care what the Ofsted report says.<br>

Siolae

<P>Apologies Janez you are absolutely right Mount Carmel was below national average last year but <STRONG>NOT</STRONG> by the figures you quote.  </P> <P>National average for 5 A*-C inc English and Maths is 57%  Mount Carmel got 54%. </P> <P>National average for  5A*-C is 79% Mount Carmel got 75%. </P> <P>These figures are from Ofsted Raiseonline 2011 report released December 2011.</P> <P>To put the school in context: national average for free school meals is 15.9%, Mount Carmel's is 44.9%.  National average for % of children without English as a first language is 12.3, Mount Carmel's is 45.2%. As a result of the fear of the middle classes the school has a far from average intake, but clearly the teaching and learning must be successful for them to get the results they get.   I would say the school's results are a bit of a success story.  </P> <P>And I would reiterate that both the other schools I mentioned St Aloysius and Highbury Fields are above national average, with a very similar intake.  I would have no hesitation in sending my kids to any of them.  </P> <P>Out of curiosity, I recently visited an independent school which costs £12000 a year.  I went with an open mind but was quite shocked by what I saw. Poor facilities, very limited curriculum and teachers who did not know what I was talking about when I asked them about recent (last 5 years) developments in pedagogy.  I genuinely could not see what the money was spent on other than pretty gardens.</P>

boxrunner

@janez <br><br>" I do not quite catch how existence of a good inner city school contradicts the statement that for a quality secondary here you need either go indie or move out. "<br><br>Let me try again then.  My example proves that for a quality secondary you do *not* need to either go private or go wealthy-homogenous.  It shows you can have good quality education by engaging with your local comprehensive school.  More than that, it shows you'll get a *better* education because not only will your kids do well academically, they'll do better by have exposure to a diverse mix of society and will be far better equipped to deal with the world when they grow up.  Finally - and I realise this is probably not high on your priorities - but it's not just *your* kids who do better, everyone's kids do better because of this diverse mix.  There is such a thing as society (even the right-wing acknowledge that now), and this is it.<br><br>The school Jo Homan talks about sounds a lot like my primary school was like (also inner city state school), and kids grow-up with a better understanding of the world because they have experienced a range of backgrounds, classes, family structures, etc.<br><br>@checkski: yes it is a pity of janez opts out and their kids don't integrate; we're all the worse for it even if it makes our lives easier now.<br><br><br>

janez

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Checkski, so sweet that you demonstrate that signature leftish despise to people you never met or know nothing about, not giving work to read what they say, just on the mere basis of your ideology. I am not a part of class system, deal with that. Too difficult to operate without prejudices? Too ready to "never rub shoulders" with "people like X"? Oh, wait, isn't the thing you hate about parents leaving the area? </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">The major problem with this thread is exactly the lack of local parents. There are kids, proudly reporting on </span><i style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">some other schools</i><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "> they were at. There is a school teacher insulted with the reality recognition (and GCSE tables </span><i style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">are</i><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "> reality). But there are no parents to tell what is happening within schools. Why? Because they are in St Albans, Sutton, Dulwich, Orpington, you name it. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">Of course, if you have 4 kids, SAHM wife, property in the area (damn, it is already sounds like Sutton) and, maybe, ambitions of a local councillor, you may be interested and ready for embarking of an epic task of dramatic improvement of your local Arts and Media college, but in other circumstances it is more rational to move to ready-made high performing school. And why on earth you think that parents near grammars do not participate in school life? </span></p>

janez

<p class="MsoNormal"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"">Siolae, probably, the discrepancy arose because of the Guardian using average for England, but if we are going to shave millimetres and use bold capitals, MC 5 A*-C is <b>NOT</b> 54%, it is only 53%, and you can see that nowhere else than on the school’s website itself.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: "Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"">Highbury Fields performs a tiny bit better than average (60%), but compared to grammars’ 95-100 it is just tears. BTW, HF is doing much better that MC, because of substantially higher % of the poor. However, I already gave credits for their work with children from the poor backgrounds. I completely agree that they are great and teachers are doing excellent job. With strugglers. You are ready to sent your kids to such schools? Be ready to see them adding fractions in Y10, because the school fights for pushing Ds into Cs. I can not blame parents who are not happy with that.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: "Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"">Indies are a large topic, with pros and cons. I would agree that they may be not the cutting edge of pedagogical science. For god’s sake, they stopped beating children two years after state schools stopped. But exams stats are telling for themselves, and adding value in secondary division is also statistically higher (nothing like that in six form, though – if a child sailed through GCSEs, s/he will do well at A-levels, irrespective of state/indie). <o:p></o:p></span></p></p>

boxrunner

I am a local parent (of 2), though I have no current ambitions to be a local councillor.  Both my partner and I work and we're starting to think about Primary Schools for our eldest, so the topic of Secondary Schools is still a little way off for our kids, but that's why we're starting to think about the issue now.<br><br>I challenge your notion that's it's more rational to move.  For one thing you create/reinforce ghettos that are unhealthy for the children you are raising to live in this city/community/Country.  Doesn't sound terribly rational to me.  It sounds like a quick fix if you have the luxury of affording to move, but it doesn't sound rational.<br><br>Interesting question you raise about grammar schools.  I know nothing about them so I didn't realise that parents don't get involved.  Why is that?<br>

checkski

Janez, I don't really understand what you're saying. Perhaps you would benefit from spending some time in a really good school yourself? Sorry, and I take that back, if English is not your first language. But somehow I just couldn't resist!

janez

@box runner, if I had 4-5 kids, I would agree that massive time+effort investment in local school pays off. To much of hassle with one kid. <div><br><div><div>Diversity... well, you can not hide from diversity in London. 30% of population born abroad, a child has no chance of not communicating with people who are different. And sorry, I do not see how diversity would help a child to do better academically. </div></div></div><div><br></div><div>Your pity is really amusing because you are pitying your own assumptions. </div>

boxrunner

Hmm...well I guess if your only measure of success/worth/bringing children up relies on academic success (which is what you're suggesting) then you have a paradigm so different from mine I don't know how to discuss that.<br><br>I've met so many academically successful people who I do genuinely pity since they're so very limited in their vision of the world and ability to navigate it.  I want much more for my kids.<br><br>By the way - and I'm no expert, I don't have the figures - I'd always understood that the single biggest influence on a child's academic success was their home life, not their school.  Better make sure there's enough money, time and energy left in the pot after the school/house moving fees!<br><br>

janez

@box runner, calling SG a ghetto is a bit OTT for me. You can not reinforce ghetto in diverse communities which get better academics at schools because of diversity, can you?<div><br></div><div>Although, there are families who do not appreciate high academic results. Neither city, nor community, nor country need doctors and engineers. We can always import them from outside EU.</div>