Benches outside Tesco

tosscat

Is this [Mr Bongo?](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/celebrity/hollywood/matthew-mcconaughey)

JoeV

@Arkady -- Agreed. But sometimes it seems to me that these internet forum battles are the same as being outraged by something ‘obscene’ on TV without actually seeing the program causing the outrage. In regard to this particular discussion as far as I can tell, most of the people participating in it are not part of the crowd that sits on the benches nor do they operate businesses or live opposite them, i.e., the people most affected. @JFJ – I don’t think my point was to dispute anyone having or not having the right to state an opinion. I only said that people who live on the street have to deal with more problems than people who do not and will have a different perspective. For example, in another thread a person who lives on SGR said that the area is crime ridden and was dismissed. While I don’t agree with the assessment there is a crime problem and I understand why it could feel like it is. Having lived on Stroud Green Road and have witnessed the nightly parade of drunks, the fights, crime scenes, and what seems like constant sirens it’s something I’ve experienced. There also have been several stabbings and murders in the time I’ve lived here – something that some people may not be aware of. I can see a person who lives on a quieter street and not subjected to the barrage on a consistent or on-going basis having a different opinion because their experience is different. Whose opinion is correct? Both or neither I would think. I don’t have an answer.

JungleFaceJake

Fair Point JoeV, I definitely don't envy you having to deal with it all the time.

miss annie

@ David Come on, everyone likes a bit of posh totty. Sadly Hugh Grant's rather let himself go so I've had to transfer my affections elsewhere.

tosscat

@ miss annie I understand that marquis doesn't like posh tottie, quite the opposite in fact.

[Deleted User]

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Four Eyes

@Misscara. I don't think you can put photos directly on here. They have to be hosted somewhere else like Flickr, then you grab the HTML code and other interweb geekery like that. Let me try with a completed unrelated pic...

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/speckyfoureyes/476127525/" title="Spikey Home by Specky Four Eyes, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/199/476127525_4eb9d51abc_m.jpg" width="240" height="180" alt="Spikey Home" /></a>

Four Eyes

Ooh it worked.

ADGS

I believe you have to upload them to somewhere else on the internet (eg flickr), then put (img src="URLHERE") around the address, except replacing the round brackets with pointy ones. And tick Html below the post.

For the record, I do live on SGR itself, upper west side. And I've never heard a whisper of Sugar Lounge, but those bongos rendered the living room pretty much uninhabitable.

Arkady

How do you choose the size of the image? do you have to manaully resize the JPG if it's too big to fit the forum?

Four Eyes

When you grab the html code in Flickr you get the options to grab various different sizes, or edit the html yourself, you can see the dimensions amongst the html gobbledigook toward the end.

Arkady

Mmm, I don't think I get that with Photobucket, but I'll look next time.

Marquis

Oh, how unfair, tosscat. Posh totty can come to me any time & basically there's room in my little heart for everyone (except Ben Fogle). That said, the longer I live in SG the more Tuesday mornings are becoming a highlight of my grotesque week, when the binmen are in town ). Probably a sign of despair.

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The user and all related content has been deleted.

Four Eyes

Keep quiet about my mayoral campaign Misscara. I'm 6 days away from becoming mayor. And yes, next time you're in the pub with your Mac I'll show you how to do it...

miss annie

@Four Eyes At least you know that Arkady's never going to challenge you for Mayoralty of the WLM.

David

Oh there's nothing wrong with posh totty but Fogle is a different issue. I'm pretty sure he's responsible for most crime and drug addiction in the UK. Some say he invented the interrogation technique known as waterboarding. And X-Factor.

miss annie

X Factor! That's going too far.

kreuzkav

@JoeV, your point about people swapping with people who actually live on SGR is so right. The same people who complain about hearing a bongo player when they're walking by them or in the park then say that we should just put up with anti-social noise and behaviour. They should try and hear it most nights during the summer and up to 4 am too.

David

I lived in a flat above the World's End in Camden which I imagine would make living on SGR feel like a small Dorset village. It was horrifically noisy, multiple bongo players and a guy with an amplifier which he played distorted harmonica through. Drum & bass thumping up through the building til 4am Mondays ramping up until 10am on weekends. A nightly fight outside the club below. Ambulances constantly scraping someone up off the intersection. Violent crime and class A dealing were openly there to see every evening. I took it as part of living there. The rent was cheaper than the place I lived in before and after all, I was living in one of the world's largest cities on one of its high streets. Seemed disingenuous if not churlish to then moan about a few crusties and a bongo player. Not sure what my point is really but high streets are where people gather. You can't choose a cappuccino crowd any more than you can choose not to have a bongo player. If you can get peace and quiet in a city like London then great, I just don't see it as something that should be expected as the norm. If it is really important to you commuting from the suburbs is an option plenty take for exactly this reason.

kreuzkav

David, you probably lived in the flat above the World's End, Camden as a young man and out of choice and now live away from it. I don't think anyone is expecting a quiet village atmosphere on a busy road. However, I think bars and some other people could have greater consideration for local residents by employing doormen late at night who do their job. Many people living on SGR didn't choose to live on it, we were placed by our social landlords after a long wait on a housing list and we can't afford to live in a flat elsewhere (that is because private rents are too high and our wages are low. I spent 10 years living in shared houses).

There are people who have been living here for twenty years or more. Things have changed with the smoking ban (lots of people outside and more late night bars over the last few years. Before that it was possible to relax and watch a dvd late in the evening and just hear the odd drunk walking up and down, some sirens, a few rows and of course the buses. It was a bit noisy but manageable. It doesn't help living near the late bar. As winter draws in it's a lot quieter but myself and my neighbours aren't looking forward to the spring and summer when we have to hear the all night party every night once again.

miss annie

I used to live above the Good Mixer in Camden and had similar horrendous noise, crime etc. experiences. It was fabulous in many other ways though, including on one occasion being able to nip downstairs in my slippers to watch Blur play live. We chose to live there because it felt like the centre of the world at the time and were prepared to put up with the problems to enjoy the benefits. I live on Moray Rd now ( yes, the wrong end of SG and only SG Borders according to some) which, as it's blocked to cars at both ends and doesn't really go anywhere, is blissfully quiet even with the Andover estate on the corner. If you don't want to be right in middle of SGR there are plenty of places to live that are much more peaceful. My rent is also cheaper than anything I looked at in more central Stroud Green, perhaps you might consider a move round the corner to the West Village? David is right. My sister travels to her job in town from the wilds of Essex every day, what she saves on living costs pays for the travel - it's always an option. Edit: @kreuzkav If you've been given an affordable flat in the middle of Stroud Green by a social landlord then I think you should actually be counting your blessings. You could very easily have ended up somewhere much worse.

David

Sorry kreuzkav we'll have to disagree. I also think you've been dealt a pretty good hand if you've landed a flat in Stroud Green. Moaning that it was quieter ten years ago and wanting it to stay that way is sticking your head in the sand. I don't know the ins and outs of social housing but imagine if you wanted to trade up a central-ish London flat for somewhere further out there'd be options open to you. Not saying it'd be easy but you make it sound like you've been detained Guantanamo style in Stroud Green. I'm just not buying it.

Arkady

I’m full of admiration for David and Miss Annie’s patience in this exchange. Kreuzkav, is there a reason that you should be exempt from all of the hard decisions and trade-offs that private sector renters have to make? Do you think that you should be further subsidised so that you can live in a leafy backstreet that other people make huge sacrifices for? I confess to finding your attitude rather galling.

WillM

Arkady, whilst I instinctively agree that everything else being equal, those in social housing shouldn't end up in nicer places than those who pay for it themselves.

That said however, it's not really the point, since we're talking about what's anti-social and what's not. Those bongos are anti-social to me in my private SGR flat as much as they are anti-social to Kreuzkav in his council-supplied SGR flat. Kreuzkav's personal circumstances shurely doesn't mean he doesn't have legitimate grounds for complaint about activity that adversely affects all of a community.

Arkady

Will, I agree about that, he has just as much right to legitimate complaint. But I also agree with David and Miss Annie that if you live on a High Street you are implicitly agreeing to considerably higher levels of disruption than if you live in the backstreets, and that you usually pay less rent as a result. If one doesn’t like it, one can pay more or move further out just like everyone else. As should be clear from earlier in this thread I’m all for cracking down on unreasonably disruptive behaviour, but it strikes me that Kreuzkav thinks everyone on SGR should whisper after 21:00.

David

Quite WillM, personal circumstance have no bearing on the complaint though kreuzkav seems keen to bring his to the table. I just can't bring myself to label a bongo player as anti-social in a high street that has helicopters, traffic, several train lines, pubs, restaurants and shops. I suppose we just have different views as to where the social line is. Once Camden got too loud for me I moved rather than expecting Camden to go get its pipe and slippers with me.

kreuzkav

As far as I know I'm not subsidised by anyone. My housing group have no major debts and the rent money is used pay for infrastructural repairs and the remaining mortgage which is low as they bought houses at the right time. Private renters are being fleeced by usually greedy landlords who have often inherited property and just hive off the excess. I also have a full time job and pay tax. I can't believe the right wing response on here. I rent at the proper rent, work hard and pay my bills. But I probably earn half of what some of you earn.

Just because I live in social housing doesn't mean I don't deserve the same respect as private renters. Social housing is for people who can't afford private rents. I clear just over a grand a month and I'd be left with very little after rent and bills if I lived in a private flat. I'm no spring chicken and I've done my time in shared houses (and I had the time of my life in some of them). My flat is no palace and I have done it up but it was very baldly converted so it will never be that nice. My rent is low but going up a lot every year so catching up with market rents, bit by bit. plus I'm responsible for furniture, flooring etc. Still great and it saves me a few hundred a month compared to a private rent. It took me years to get it too, I wasn't handed it on a plate.

The bongo player wasn't a problem for me as I barely noticed him. That would be a very minor problem if he was just across the way from my flat. We've had to endure two late night bars increasing their late night hours and the smoking ban pushing more people onto the pavement until the early hours. To sum it up, would you like a late night bar opened up outside your house? The honest answer from most people would be no. The bar has taken steps to improve and now it's winter it's not a big problem. I just want people to be aware there are people living on this road too, not just fly by night students but long term residents who have the same rights, whether social or private tenants, rich or poor as people not living on SGR.

By the way, I agree that private renters have choice and I would move if I was one and in the same situation as no, living near a late night bar and on a main road. I think living on a quiet road near the Andover estate would be nicer than living here. However, on my income (and I work hard and don't get any income support or benefits, I'm just badly paid in my chosen profession) my only choice was to take the flat or stay living in a shared flat. When I chose it there was no late bar or smoking ban in operation. I am fairly easy going and the buses and other noise was manageable. But I just think that certain noise is avoidable (anti-social noise). I am looking into moving as I'm no victim but I'll be sad to go. This is a forum and I'm interested in the debate surrounding this issue.

David

_"Just because I live in social housing doesn't mean I don't deserve the same respect as private renters."_ You're absolutely right. Living on a London high street and moaning about the noise gets little sympathy from me for either group. That's not right wing, that's just an opinion about high street living based on doing it myself for a few years.

tamsin

I was unlucky enough to experience a painful and debilitating "temporary disability" for a couple of years due to arthritis which has now thankfully been sorted out by an operation and a large amount of physio. I'm young to have these problems, but disability caused by arthritis is waiting for many of us in later life. I realise that most of the posters will probably not disagree with the points I raise below but, as the removal of benches in London is something I feel passionately about, I just felt I should post my thoughts.

Being physically less able was a bloody tough and humbling experience and it made me look at living in London in a completely different light. London is basically not set up for people who are physically weaker - in fact, its an obstacle course that often feels specifically designed to be uncomfortable. The removal of benches is just one of the ways the city is being re-designed to be inaccessible. Its not just happening on SGR.

I have vivid memories of shopping, or just getting from A to B, and being in desperate need of a seat but not being able to find anything. Eventually you happen across one of those hovering seats in a bus stop and take the weight off, but you can't really relax cos they are not real seats - you just get half a cheek on! Often, your only option for a good rest is to pay for a cup of coffee.

And for the record, I would have sat next to anyone if I needed a seat whether they were drunk, wrapped in a sleeping bag, playing bongos or not!

If the seats were removed because people complained about the 'inhabitants' I can guarantee that they never asked anyone who suffers from a disability what impact it would have on them - or if they did they discounted their views. Shameful.

We need more benches not less.