20 mph Speed Limit on SGR

Ali

<P>Apparently this  is wanted by the people of Stroud Green </P> <P><A href="http://www.haringeyindependent.co.uk/news/9823452.Public_do_not_feel__safe__with_30mph_speed_limit/">http://www.haringeyindependent.co.uk/news/9823452.Public_do_not_feel__safe__with_30mph_speed_limit/</A></P>;

Arkady

I've been reading back of andy's objections to this in a past thread... where is the evidence that this would actually change anything?<br>

yagamuffin

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">They could make the speed limit 5mph but without enforcement it'll make no difference.</font><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">The problem is not the minority of nice people driving at or under thirty it's the arrogant fucks breaking the speed limit, they will still do this even if the limit is reduced. Thus reducing the limit will not make the road any safer.</font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Enforce the current rules and you may see a difference.</font></div>

Roy

I think the real problem is that SGR <i>feels</i> too much of a main road.  It feels like a 30 zone.  Maybe we should get used to retail areas being 20 zones, but atm it's not what people expect.<br>

miss annie

<p>It doesn't feel like a main road for most of the day. There's not much traffic at all outside school run and work rush hour times. </p><p>People do cross it irresponsibly though, there's a perfectly servicable crossing by Tesco but people like to walk straight out of Tesco and into the road instead.</p>

Roy

@miss annie: You're right that the traffic levels aren't like a typical main road - but the level of retail presence doesn't make it *feel* that residential (essentially pretty much the entirity of the Islington side, and substantial parts of the Haringey side are retail/commercial at ground level)<br>

gardener-joe

I walked over to Crouch End today at about 2 pm. Very pleasant til I got to Crouch End. Nose to tail parking, relentless traffic flow, crowded pavements, loads of mums and buggies ... it was not what I wanted on a day off work (added to which Boots, the purpose of my trip, had none of its own brand shower gels ... grrr). It was such a relief to stroll back to SG, via Crouch Hill, Mt View Road, Mount Pleasant Villas, Mt Pleasant Crescent. Quiet and sunny, and on the downhill SG side two people at different points actually nodded and said 'afternoon'. SG Rd itself when I got there via Stapleton, was quiet ... relaxed pavements, the guys in the tyre and engine shops on MPC doing their stuff ... the street cafes gently busy ... the guys in the woodwork shop busy making windows ... Jacks unloading a delivery ... the lady from Santas having her fag break ... as too the chap at Sparks ... had a coffee and cake - and even a smidgen of flirting - in Vagabond. Wandered home via the even quieter side streets on the north (Haringey) side ... SG as village ... a great place to live. Definitely best during the week. Sunshine helps. The 20 mph plans seem a bit pointless ... was anyone here consulted? Certainly I wasn't. [That's enuf musing. Ed.]

Papa

Pointless, has anybody ever thought, 'hmm I think what we really need is a lower speed limit on Stroud Green Road?' The idiots who speed in built up areas will still ignore it, as Yagamuffin points out make it 5mph and they'll still do it.<br><br>To recap an old bugbear of many of us: Islington spent thousands running a flawed consultation on a Hanley Road 20mph area, which had to include the surrounding side roads, ie Regina, Evershot etc to get funding. They then spent a fortune imposing speed bumps on the narrow side roads (going against their own consultation result), that didn't need them. The after effects now damage people's houses and the bumps are already falling apart and the roads deteriorating where they meet them.<br><br>All of this allowed a 20mph limit on Hanley Road, which most people still ignore and drive at above 30mph down.<br><br>In fact, I've witnessed more dangerous driving derived from idiots overtaking those obeying the Hanley Road 20mph speed limit than I ever saw before it was imposed.<br><br>If the councils want to do something useful they could fix the potholes, resurface the roads properly, mend the pavements etc - rather than waste money on these self-absorbed, officer job justifying schemes.<br><br>As ever, apologies for the rant.<br><br>@Gardener Joe - hear, hear - nice summing up of Stroud Green Road<br>

Ali

Sounds like the LibDems have not got the people on his one !  Councillors where are you ?

andy

@Papa L - I love that that sham consultation still rankles with others as it does with me. Signs that we are becoming proper grumpy old men, moaning about 5 year old council decisions.<div><br></div><div>Also, good point about Hanley Road. Many a 3-series and moped driver now sees the stretch between the speed bump and the Dairy as an opportunity to floor it and overtake a car or two. Is it safer? Doesn't feel like it.</div>

Ali

<P>Islington  is start its 20ph on every road speed limit at the end of March.  SGR is the boundary between Islington and Harringey if it is the middle are we going thave 30 mph going down the the station and 20 comming up ?</P> <P> </P> <P>Accordng to this  it will save a lot of people from being injurred</P> <P><A href="http://www.bmj.com/content/339/bmj.b4469">http://www.bmj.com/content/339/bmj.b4469</A></P>;

utp_guy

Does anyone know if this includes humps?  I thought 20mph zones had to have a self enforcing control.

miss annie

It will save people from being injured if they are crossing irresponsibly and are hit by a car while they are jazzing about in the road. If people use the crossings to cross properly, it won't make any difference at all.

ADGS

That might be true were it not for the widespread failure of drivers to respect the law at the crossings along SGR, instead speeding through on amber or even red lights. 

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ADGS

A camera would be nice, but missiles would be better.

Papa

I've said this before, but it is worth mentioning again.<br><br>We live on Hanley Road, which has a 20mph speed limit, hardly anyone pays attention to it and the police have stated they will not enforce 20mph speed limits. <br><br>At 30mph, despite it being a relatively busy road, I would not say there are any safety issues. I have, however, seen many more near-crashes involving people overtaking those who are actually obeying the 20mph speed limit.<br><br>(I endeavour to do 20mph, reasoning that it is my road)<br><br>The 20mph speed limits appear to me to be self-aggrandising projects for council officers, probably to stick on their CV. There are much better ways to spend money and improve road safety -<br><br>ADGS' missile speed cameras, for instance.<br><br>( I should also point attention to the sham consultation moaned about above just to please @Andy )<br>

tomp

Can we have a 20 limit on Ferme Park Road please, rather than the standard 45mph that most drivers seem to stick to 

yagamuffin

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">I do wonder if anything works to slow drivers down. Lancaster Road seems to be used as a short-cut, I'm guessing to avoid the SGR traffic lights. Despite a 20 mph limit and speed humps there are still loads of cars speeding through there at all times of day and night.</font><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;"><br></div>

NorthNineteen

A few points.<br><br>- although SGR forms the boundary between Islington and Harringey it will be controlled by one or the other<br>- the proposed Islington wide 20mph limit will not have any additional speed humps/traffic calming<br>- Islington are progressing even though the police have objected<br>- Islington are currently undertaking a trial with Hackney for a 20mph on I think Kingsland Road, this is a road controlled by TfL (TRLN) so needs TfL to say they are happy with having its as 20mph for Islington to progress with a borough wide limit<br>- Islington are also lobbying for the ability to enforce speed limits, this would be much like the decriminalisation of parking that happened in the 90s (?).<br>- the Islington 20mph Borough wide limit is being pushed forward by councillors, Council officers actually tried to get councillors to not proceed with their proposals.<br>

NorthNineteen

@yagamuffin: removing through routes has a big impact in reducing speeding.  Hackney has lots of examples where selective road closures can effectively traffic calm whole areas.  Both the west side and east side of SGR could have this kind of treatment.<br>

Papa

'- Islington are also lobbying for the ability to enforce speed limits, this would be much like the decriminalisation of parking that happened in the 90s (?).'<br><br>I wonder why?<br><br>So they can use their little spy cars and cameras to dish out tons of lucrative tickets, perhaps.<br><br>If you ever needed a clearer indication that councils are less interested in clearly signposting road rules and ensuring people actually obey them rather than milking them for all they are worth here's another gem from Islington.<br><br><a href="http://www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news/confusing_road_layout_branded_worst_in_islington_after_baffled_motorists_fined_750_000_in_two_months_1_1833340">Confusing road layout branded worst in Islington after baffled motorists fined £750,000 in two months</a><br><br><br>

yagamuffin

<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(239, 239, 239);">“One of our delivery drivers was ticketed six times" to be fair the council can't legislate for people's stupidity!</span>

miss annie

We live in Moray Rd (Islington side) which was apparently used as a cut through from Fonthill to Hornsey Rd and SGR. The council put up gates at the Birnam Rd end, Charteris Rd and the exit to Durham Rd some time time ago which means that it is absolutely quiet, except for cars belonging to people who live here and the occasional misguided vehicle doing a three point turn. A taxi driver told me that it was a dicey rat run before the gates, you couldn't wish for a more peaceful road now. Removing the cut throughs works.

Arkady

Yes, I understand that it's a question of the councillors, rather than council officers.  I am told that this is because - in apparent contrast to the educated and rariefied views of the average evidence-devoted StroudGreen.org punter - 20mph speed limits are exceedingly popular among voters, and this obviously influences politicans a fair bit.<br>

Ali

and according to the BMA reduces the number of people getting hurt

Arkady

@Ali: 20mph limits?  That would be interesting if so, as various people here seem to be claiming that there is no evidence that it does make a difference, including our esteemed Andy.  Do you have a link?<br>

andy

the BMJ link Ali posted seems reasonable, though some of the logic is a bit heroic in places. <div><br></div><div>the point about our area was an elephant powder argument. </div><div><br></div><div>There had never been an accident inside the hanley/hornsey/sgr/tollington box. Mostly because cars can't do 20 mph because the streets were so narrow. So it was sort of all conceptual</div>

Papa

I had the impression that this was officer-driven not councillor-driven  from correspondence from Islington after the sham consultation and also due to the Islington one spanning two different administrations. I stand corrected.<br><br>The BMJ document from Ali is very interesting, although as Andy alludes to it has the air of seeking to prove an already decided point. <br><br>This is very compelling: 'The general trend in casualties and collisions over time in London, an annual decline of 1.7%, was equivalent to a 15.8% reduction over 10 years or a 29.0% reduction over 20 years. Thus, in broad terms, the additional effect of the 20 mph zones was that of a step reduction in casualties and collisions by an amount that has taken over 20 years to achieve on roads without 20 mph zones.'<br><br>'When we restricted analyses to 2000-6, the period with the lowest annual numbers of casualties, the results for the effects of 20 mph zones showed slightly smaller percentage reductions of 22.7% (15.3% to 30.1%) for all casualties, 28.4% (17.8% to 39.0%) for killed or seriously injured, and 21.6% (12.9% to 30.4%) for all pedestrian injuries. In the case of cyclists, the point estimate suggests almost no effect (−1.3%, −22.3% to 19.8%).'<br><br>I have no problem with a 20mph zone properly implemented and consulted on. The Hanley to Tollington one got residents' backing yet speed bumps did not. The entire consultation was flawed as it failed to mention people could not have one without the other, even on roads so narrow that most cars didn't do 20mph. <br><br>On the main road where people do go faster - Hanley Road - hardly anyone pays any attention to the 20mph limit and the overtaking, tailgating and general idiocy of drivers ignoring it and trying to beat the few who do follow the limit is typically the most dangerous driving you'll witness there. I have no study to back that up, just daily observation.<br><br>I think that council behaviour like the sham consultation and the continued revenue-raising misuse of clearly badly signed measures like the Drayton Park one in the Islington Gazette link above damages the cause of trying to get people onside for sensible traffic measures, it pulls down the Clarkson / health and safety gone mad blinkers faster than anything else.<br><br>But then this kind of council stuff gets under my skin more than it does other people's.<br><br><br>

NorthNineteen

" have no problem with a 20mph zone properly implemented and consulted on. The Hanley to Tollington one got residents' backing yet speed bumps did not. The entire consultation was flawed as it failed to mention people could not have one without the other, even on roads so narrow that most cars didn't do 20mph."<br><br>New DfT guidance released last month means this is no longer the case.<br><br>I noticed there an awful lot of speed/traffic count loops installed on Hanley Road, Osmond Road and Grenville Road.  I wonder what they are for....<br>

andy

<span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20.796875px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">New DfT guidance released last month means this is no longer the case.</span><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20.796875px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></div><div><font face="lucida grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, tahoma, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 20.796875px;">I am led to believe that a former sgr member had a hand in this.</span></font></div>