Socal housing V's the bourgeois elite.

Detritus

It was always better to own a hotel on Mayfair that a house on Old Kent Road.

gardener-joe

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Detritus

Curious, I would love to own a house but to even get on the housing ladder in this area you need silly money. Socal housing with controlled rent is a good idea. Or the right to buy. What is the avarage rent in Stroud Green does anybody know?

yagamuffin

This is where I have a problem. The rich are always going to afford to buy houses, recession or no recession and more social housing can only be a good thing but it does leave the middle being squeezed more and more.<div>Those of us who don't qualify for social housing, yet don't earn enough to buy are left in an private rental hell with ever increasing rents.</div><div>As for your question @Detritus from experience, average rent for two bed flats is around £1000 a month and up.</div>

Detritus

No I agree, some form of rent control would be such a blessing.

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andy

Housing hasn't got a demand problem, there's a supply problem.<div><br></div><div>There's a strong case for rent controls, but it's fundamentally working on the demand side, not the supply side. This (inevitably) creates an us-and-them between people who have access to rent controlled property and people who don't. </div><div><br></div><div>The real problem is that there aren't enough places for people to live and too many incentives for people to hold property as an investment. Taxes on buy-to-let, reforming foreign ownership benefits and other things that make property less attractive as an investment should also be considered. </div>

Mirandola

I know that people here come from all sides of politics, but you might want to respond to Labour's policy review on housing, if only to give them a piece of your mind. Web page is here - hope link works: http://www.yourbritain.org.uk/agenda-2015/policy-commissions/stronger-safer-communities-policy-commission/the-housing-crisis-house-building-and-private-rented-sector-that-works-for-britaina-families-1

yagamuffin

What @Andy says. It annoys me quite a lot when I hear politicians go on about needing more social housing, we just need more housing full stop.<div>As Andy says, it's basic free-market economics, supply and demand.</div>

JoeV

<div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">What annoys me is the call to build more rental flats when what's actually needed is more rental buildings -- blocks of rental flats owned by a single owner -- not individual flats owned by multiple owners. </span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Yes it's about supply and demand but this is in relation to cost. There's also the question of security. I'm sure there are many people like Misscara, who would carry-on in the private rented sector, whether by choice or necessity, except for the fact that it's so bloody awful to be a rental tenant in this country.</span></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial">In all the places I've lived in since I moved to London, I've never felt any of the flats were my home. It still feels like I'm living in someone else's house. This has never happened to me before and I've lived my entire adult life as a renter. It's normal where I'm from and for my partner too. You sign a lease for an apartment in a rental building and it's yours full stop. You won't be kicked out unless you don't pay the rent and you are guaranteed automatic lease renews every year.</font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial">Here, it's a constant feeling of being in limbo because after the initial contract runs out, you're on a month-to-month lease and can be put out at any time with two month's notice. I can't imagine how people with children can live like this.</font></p></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana;"><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana;"><br></div>

yagamuffin

Where else have you lived @JoeV ? I've only ever lived in the UK but am interested in how it works in other countries...

JoeV

@yagamuffin -- this is probably more than you wanted to know but here it goes!<div><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">I'm from </span><st1:state w:st="on" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"><st1:place w:st="on">New York</st1:place></st1:state><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> (city) originally where renting is not seen as ‘less than’. There’s also less distinction between social housing and the private rental sector – they are both governed by the same rules for the most part -- except in social housing, i.e. 'projects', the city is the landlord.</span></div><div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">It’s as expensive as </span><st1:city w:st="on" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"><st1:place w:st="on">London</st1:place></st1:city><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">, so the cost factor here bothers me less because I’m used to it. But in general in what is considered the private rental sector, you have a mixture of types of building that have rental apartments. There are large and small rental buildings and also houses that sometimes have rental apartments. I've lived in all of types.</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">My last apartment was in a small building with nine apartments in total. Before that I lived in a two-family house on a month to month lease. The owner lived downstairs and I lived in the apartment upstairs (This was a house built as a two-family house, not a conversion.)</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">The big difference between New York and London (at least to me) is that New York has more rental buildings, where all the apartments in the building have only one owner and the property is treated along the line of a business. So you are less often at the whim of a landlord who might want to sell or take back the apartment. In </span><st1:place w:st="on" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"><st1:state w:st="on">New York</st1:state></st1:place><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">, if the owner sells, the entire building would be sold. </span><st1:city w:st="on" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"><st1:place w:st="on">London</st1:place></st1:city><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> seems to have more converted houses and blocks of flats built as individual flats to be sold to individual owners. </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Finding an apartment is much the same. You go to an estate agent, they show you what’s available. You pay a security deposit, usually one month’s rent, the first month’s rent, a fee for a credit check – and controversially, the renter also pays the estate agent a finder’s fee – at least one month’s rent or a 10-12% of the first year’s rent. It’s outrageous really but that’s the system. Although people complain about the fees in </span><st1:city w:st="on" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"><st1:place w:st="on">London</st1:place></st1:city><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">, I’ve never paid anything other than the fee for a credit check. Everything else has always been refunded when I moved out</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">And that’s it. Once the lease is signed, the apartment is yours and it’s unlikely your lease would not be renewed each year unless you didn't pay the rent or were a nuisance.</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Furnished apartments are not as common as they are here. You usually bring your own furniture, curtains, shades, blinds, etc.</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Heat and hot water are also usually included in the rent. Most people pay for there own gas and electric, telephone, broadband/cable. There are exceptions of course, and newer building tend to have decentralised heat and hot water.</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Also, tenants do not pay property taxes, i.e., council tax, water and sewer charges. The landlord pays it, though technically, I gather this would reflected in the rent.</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Many larger apartments have live-in supers who are in charge of general repairs, sorting the rubbish bins, cleaning the common areas, entries, hallways, etc.</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">I won’t bore you with the ins and outs of rent-controlled vs rent-stabilised vs open market apartments - or with condos and co-ops. </span></p></div>

Mirandola

I am a housing geek, so here's a hypothetical question I'd love to see your answers to: Suppose that we could, over the next five years, build decent housing for 40,000 people in Haringey and Islington (boroughs with a combined population of 400,000). Suppose also that this could be done without encroaching on parkland, hospitals or schools, but might mean converting some pubs, shops, garages, private gardens, patches of scrubland. Would you approve? Would you want to set conditions - e.g. around tenure? Alright, that's two questions.

yagamuffin

Well I do like the greenery around in gardens and scrub land, but needs must.<div><div>There is space to be exploited by good, creative design.</div><div>The block on the SGR side of the station where the car-wash is springs to mind as somewhere that could, with a well thought out and creative design keep the existing commercial/retail space and include a larger residential area too.</div></div><div>The new houses at the bottom of Ferme Park Road on the site of the old design studio(?) look to be a good example of making the most of limited space.</div><div>There are lots of little pockets around the area where a couple of houses or apartments could be added. There used to be an area of scrub land behind Hanley Road (north side) next to the church, not sure if that's been built on yet.</div><div>I do much prefer the idea of lots of little infill building sites rather than big new housing estates. The architecture when the like of Bovis or Wimpy get involved often leaves a lot to be desired.</div>

Papa

High property prices and subsequently high rents are driven by the underlying problems of too cheap money and an imbalanced economy more than a simple supply and demand issue.<br><br>The Bank of England MPC had and still has no remit when setting interest rates to tackle house price inflation - only consumer prices inflation.<br><br>Property prices were allowed to spiral out of control throughout the 2000 to 2007 period, the BoE had no remit to tackle this and the Government and a certain Chancellor Brown were happy to stand by and allow it to happen, as people cashing in through remortgaging and spending money delivered the illusion of a healthy consumer economy - it also bumped up the tax take as a huge fiscal drag pulled people into higher stamp duty and inheritance tax.<br><br>Our economy is so dependent on the property market that prices were never allowed to crash properly and were artificially supported by slashing base rate to 0.5%. Lenders hiking deposit requirements from 5% to 25% to get decent mortgage rates slashed transactions and pushed more people into renting. The lettings market always does well when sales slump.<br><br>The UK's horrendous regional imbalance means too many people are pulled to London and the South East for employment and those who come here to work from overseas also get drawn to the area - driving up house prices and rents further.<br><br>Since the financial crisis low interest rates and stock market volatility make the rental yields on buy-to-let and property's supposed stability highly attractive for investors.<br><br>This Government has also crazily decided to roll the dice on refloating the property market rather than target resources towards sorting out all the stuff that doesn't work properly.<br><br>It's hair of the dog economics that will end in an even bigger hangover.<br><br>It also spells bad news for anyone hoping to buy or rent a home. <br>

miss annie

I would like to see hefty fines on property owners who leave property empty (particularly councils). A while ago I was part of an independent housing association. We rented two massive houses on Hornsey Rise Gdns, from Islington Council, both of which were not fit for council tenants. They were falling down, leaky, no heating, but the council weren't ready to sell them so we. ad them on a rolling monthly contract for ground rent of £500 per month per house. The condition was that we had to do our utmost to stop them slipping into complete disrepair but we weren't allowed to do major works - replacing the roof as that would have taken it to a habitable level. We were there for six years, at the end of which the roof leaks had got bigger so we had a paddling pool in the attic to catch water/snow, and the top floor was uninhabitable. The houses were both then sold at auction for a knock down price to developers who have put six expensive flats in each. Strikes me as wrong somehow. I'd rather focus on using all the housing stock we have and cutting any benefits to buy to letters to move housing stock round a bit quicker. I like the New York way.

yagamuffin

Well that's put a downer on my otherwise sunny day!

yagamuffin

I'm not sure if it's the sugar coated view we see on the telly but the American apartment idea does seem like some utopian dream.

miss annie

Sorry 'bout that @yagamuffin. It's not a dream, everyone I've ever known in the States rents and no one seems to have had a bad experience. And all their flats are bigger than mine! Although some of New York's plumbing leaves a bit to be desired.

yagamuffin

Wasn't you Miss Annie, tis Papa L <div><br></div><div><br></div>

Arkady

Stroud Green ward has several empty council properties, despite the waiting list.  There's a picture of me being glum outside one here: http://www.haringeyindependent.co.uk/news/10376924.Council_attacked_as_authority_owned_home_is_left_empty_for_eight_months/?ref=rss<br>;

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JoeV

<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2">It’s not ideal in <st1:state w:st="on">New York</st1:state> by any means. There are as many crappy, overpriced  apartments and scummy landlords as there are in <st1:city w:st="on">London</st1:city>, but the forms of ownership in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region> and the prevalence of leasehold are unique I think. Where else in the world do you layout hundreds of thousands of pounds for a lease?</font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2">In <st1:country-region w:st="on">Germany</st1:country-region>, renting is a similar to <st1:state w:st="on">New York</st1:state> (and NY is not the same as in other parts of the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region>). In fact, it’s common to make major investments in a rental. My friends just moved into a huge flat in <st1:city w:st="on">Cologne</st1:city> and put in a brand new kitchen and bathroom. This is common. Kitchens often come bare and you bring your own appliances and cabinets.</font></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"> <font face="Arial" size="2">@miss annie – of all the cliches about <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Britain</st1:place></st1:country-region>, I found the jokes about the awful plumbing to be true! Leaky faucets and no water pressure above the ground floor – what’s up with that!</font></p>

David Barry

Actually there was a recent article in the FT that mentioned the German property market. The key, it was suggested is that tenants have a very high security of tenure. An eviction requires a court process and can only succeed if the landlord requires the flat for their "personal use." And even that sort of eviction may require a year or so's notice to allow the tenant to get replacement accommodation. The article pointed out that (as JoeV remarks) housing is usually let without fixtures and fittings -you do your own - and that the kind of investment this requires by the tenant is only acceptable because of the security of tenure. It is common for people to rent the same place for years, or even a lifetime. So of course they will tend to look after it.<div><br></div>

David Barry

We all know that the underlying problem with the cost of housing in London is that demand exceeds supply. What does puzzle me about this, is why, as prices rise and rise, there is not more housebuilding by builders building for profit. Does anyone know why this is? in most markets when the price gets high enough it does pull in new suppliers and sources of supply. So when the price of oil goes up more oil exploration takes place, and so forth. <div><br></div><div>But that does not seem to happen with housing, in London.</div>

andy

@David Barry - A housing policy expert once told me that housebuilders don't make their money building homes. They make their money on the wholesale to retail of land. So they have huge landbanks, which they break into little pieces, and put a little box on top that is the absolute minimum in terms of building regs. So they just play the peaks and troughs of land prices over the economic cycle. There is no shortage of land, and no shortage of land to build on. There is a shortage of incentives to build homes for profit, no incentive to build a 'premium' quality home over and above building regs, and a shortage of costs to holding land for speculation. So it is straightforwardly a problem of getting the tax and regulation right.

Stella

David: true, in Germany people normally stay much longer in their flats. Rent is also much cheaper, even though earnings are cheaper, too. I've always lived in a 1-bed flat, since my early 20s. The concept of sharing is normally only for students or apprentices, so between 18 to 23 perhaps. Normally, you only pay deposit and the first rent and that's it. The owner pays the agency for handling the contract, etc. At least from what I remember (it's been a while).<br><br>You pay for used water, gas and electricity (most flats will have central heating). The standards of the flats are also much higher. I've never seen so many horrid places being let for good money. In Germany, nobody would ever rent such a property. I recently saw a flat that was in dire condition, yet it was let straight away. Shocking. I feel for the tenants who will have a very moldy and cold flat in the winter.<br><br>Social housing is available to everyone, but there's normally a waiting list. Some have recommendation systems, where you can get a flat because someone (a tenant) recommended you.<br><br>I also have a feeling (in this current flat I'm soon leaving--hopefully--if I find somewhere else to live) that I never felt really home. It's to do with the flat being furnished. And I was told I'm not allowed (ideally) to hang pictures, which requires a nail in the wall. I hung two, though, as the naked walls drove me nuts. <br><br><br><br>

Stella

Sorry, for the long post that needed to be split in halves.<br><br>In Germany you can decorate the flat to your liking, but you need to restore it when you move out. Oftentimes it's the new tenants who do it themselves, it's a loose agreement. <br><br>There's also a clause in many contracts that you need to decorate the rooms every few years to keep the standards and quality. Small repairs have to be done by the tenant (loo seat or something like that), bigger things like boiler or structural work needs to be done by the landlord. If they fail to do that, you must write the landlord, informing him or her that you'll shorten the rent, like 50 Euro per month. Three times and if the landlord doesn't comply, you can shorten the rent legally. I never experienced that. Normally it's a really good relationship and landlords are easy going as they <br><br>That said, I've not really encountered any problems with my landlords, but with neighbours. Landlords in Germany will kick you out if you're noisy. Some refuse to take tenants that work in hospitality, for that reason. Coming home late and party when others want to sleep is not accepted. Here, nobody cares. <br><br>That's not a moan, but to show some differences. Noisy neighbours is my real gripe in London, to the rest I can adapt. After all, I chose to live here, so I need to accept the differences in standards.<br>

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ChangN4N6

Renting is actually nicer IMHO as you can move around freely. If you get a girlfriend or find yourself living in a Stinking street, for example . Selling would take ages and cost loads. Chang

Stella

Nope, haven't found one. Went to see a flat, but it was let straight afterwards and then the landlord sort of asked if I fancied a drink.<br><br>No, man, I just want a flat. <br>