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gardener-joe

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Ali

<img src="http://shaunynews.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/560105_628743630500158_1167950518_n1.jpg">

Arkady

There's some powerful and persuasive stuff in the '<a href="https://www.opendemocracy.net/freeform-tags/40-reasons">40 reasons to vote yes</a>' series on OpenDemocracy.<div><br></div><div>I particularly commend the articles on reasons <a href="https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/40-reasons-to-support-scottish-independence-reasons-7-8-interdependence-and-f">7-8</a>, <a href="https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/40-reasons-to-support-scottish-independence-9-10-11-west-lothian-question-pro">9-11</a>, and <a href="https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/for-everyone-else-in-uk-40-reasons-to-support-scottish-independence-40">40</a> to you.</div><div><br></div><div>I find this little chart very useful:</div><div><br></div><div><img src="http://www.devoplus.com/storage/logos-or-graphics/spectrum.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1350920877519"><br></div>

Arkady

If, as seems likely, Scotland votes to stay in but gets Devo+ or Devo-Max, then we're in for some very interesting times anyway.  Scottish MPs will have a 1-day a week job.  Assuming (rather safely) that this leads to some form of 'English votes for English laws' rule in the Commons, it will make things really rather difficult.  <div><br></div><div>Any Labour minority government, Labour-led coalition or small Labour majority (relying on their 40+ Scottish MPs) would be in office but not in power, as the Tories would have more English MPs - a serious constitutional crisis would ensue.  This is one of the main reasons why I figure it is better for Scotland to become independent now, and for the rest of the UK to take the opportunity to rethink its own constitutional arrangements along more democratic, pluralist lines.  Otherwise we are just kicking the can down the road.</div>

miss annie

If Scotland don't want to be part of the UK let them go. Let them pay for their own country from their own money - pounds, euros, cowrie shells or whatever, and decide what to spend it on. When my glorious reign dawns London will be an independent city state too, North Circular being our Hadrians Wall to the North and the river (easy to defend) to the South. The border guards will be dressed in Elizabethan garb in a less garish version of Swiss Guards outfits, and we will measure everything in pounds and ounces, shillings and pence.

Arkady

Cowrie shells! *chortle*<div>Why do I envisage your approach to reigning as being similar to that of Lizzie in Blackadder?</div><div>I'm amused that your London City state doesn't include south of the river.  To be honest I'm not sure I'd bother with anything outside of the central and N postcodes.</div>

Arkady

@annie - there's a vacancy: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/06/boris-johnson-stand-mp-2015-general-election

Ali

Any Labour minority government, Labour-led coalition or small Labour majority (relying on their 40+ Scottish MPs) would be in office but not in power, as the Tories would have more English MPs - a serious constitutional crisis would ensue.<br><br>That is exactly the situation in Scotland and has been for  a very long time.<br><br>There are curently more Pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs.<br><br>Darling says you can't come back if you leave thast not a probelms as I can't tyhink of any Country that has left English has ver coem back anyway which says a lot<br><br>Must be galling for Darling to have to defend Cameron in Scotland <br><br><br>The debate is on BBC Parliament at 7pm tonight.<br><br>Once reason I support it is that it will cause  a huge change to very out of date constituional arrangements in the UK. <br><br>I wonder how many votes will swing Yes on the back of the  possiblity  of Boris being PM mayebe in the not too distant future if we get a close labour win in the election.<br>

Detritus

I have to live with that... I would hate to see the breakup of the UK, from my simplistic and English point of view why change things.

Marquis

I thought Limmy made a convincing point on this: <a href="">

gardener-joe

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Arkady

Funny, it's starting to look like we were on to something. SG.org, always ahead of the game.

Sutent

We need a huge change in this country. Scotland will hopefully lead the way...

Ali

This  is getting very interesting <br>

Arkady

Indeed.  It now looks like the whole UK would benefit from a constitutional revolution if the Scots vote no, so I'm torn.  <br><br>

Ali

To quote Simon Jenkins directly from last nights  Evenings Standard  concerning Westminster  NO promisses <br><div id="yui_3_7_2_1_1410337192768_8639" dir="ltr"><br></div> <div id="yui_3_7_2_1_1410337192768_8636" dir="ltr">If I was the Scots I would not trust a word of it. I recall the Arab warrior who invited his enemies to a peace banquet and then roasted them on a split.</div><div id="yui_3_7_2_1_1410337192768_8635" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_7_2_1_1410337192768_8637" dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:15.5555562973022px;font-family:'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;"><br></div> <div id="yui_3_7_2_1_1410337192768_8522" dir="ltr"><br></div>

miss annie

I like his style!

Arkady

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;">I thought Monbiot was very convincing (as usual):</span></font><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;"><br></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;">http://www.monbiot.com/2014/09/09/england-the-brave/</span></font><br></div>;

Sutent

I read that article. Very good. I love Monbiot

quince

Monbiot castigates Gordon Brown for cutting corporation tax yet seems unaware that Salmond has pledged to set the rate in an independent Scotland at 3% lower than in the UK (or whatever it might end up being called).  He seems to see no incongruence between his own environmental beliefs and Scotland's likely dependence on oil revenue, when one would expect him to be campaigning for it to be kept in the ground.<div><br></div><div>How anyone who purports to be on the left can seriously advocate separation, nationalism and division over union, brotherhood and shared purpose is quite beyond me.  Certainly the Nats are making the political weather, but they can't make the rivers run with Buckfast, despite all their promises.  They who have most to gain.  It will not be a socialist Utopia because there is not the money to pay for it all.  The country would be diminished.  Both countries, actually, but Scotland most of all and in perpetuity.</div><div><br></div><div>Classic liberal self-hatred.  </div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

kreuzkav

Quince, you are living in the old age.  I'd like to see an independent Scotland.  They have a chance to change the scene.  The UK is a dead royalist group of landlord estates.  Let the Scots take charge of their destiny whatever it leads.  Maybe the smug Great Brits can stop bowing do the Aristocrats and create a better England.

Sutent

I agree with Kreuzkav. The UK has huge social inequality and run by a select rich part of society. The Scots have a chance of changing this for the better, and hopefully we can follow soon after..

checkski

I am inclined to go with Quince. Nationalism is a peculiar quantity. It often excites those of us on the left, especially where, as in the case of Scotland, the aspirant goitalone already smells sweeter than the foetid parent regime. Nationalism often develops into fascism, although that seems unlikely in this case. Going it alone seems exciting, especially to the young, but it is less practical, and less socialist, I suggest, than pressing on with the bigger struggle. Perhaps I am being silly when an unrelated parallel pops into my head, as an ex-teacher: the Goveian Free School. How tempting it might be to snatch at the chance of setting up some radical alternative to the present quasi-Victorian regime of the last 30 years. But the only way of ensuring provision for ALL must be under a much larger umbrella. The Inner London Education Authority was far from perfect, but was, for example, able to organise an impressive music-for-all programme, whereas now music education has practically vanished, in poorer communities (sign the petition!). I  have rambled ridiculously, but perhaps some liberals and lefties will agree with me: bigger is better. An independent Scotland will almost certainly not end up in the place most of its supporters would wish it to. Better to fight on together, Rob Roy!

Ali

Well Checski I guess your right that there wil be   near permanent Tory Governmnet in the RUK if Scotland leave<br>

Arkady

On that I don't agree. Labour would only need one percent more to have an overall majority. Since the Tories stopped being the largest party in Scotland only three Labour majorities relied on Scottish MPs, and only one of those elections would have clearly resulted in a Tory majority.

Arkady

The answer to Quince and Checkski’s concerns about nationalism and solidarity is this: the United Kingdom, began as a first-and-worst attempt at a transnational government. But now it actively undermines attempts at transnational solidarity, as seen in its retrograde attitude towards European immigration. <br><br>Scottish succession is very arguably about localism, democracy and subsidiary rather than any 19th century idea that ethno-national groups should have their own state. Britain’s ossified majoritarian constitution, astonishing level of over-centralisation, and worsening levels of inequality are symptoms of a rot that goes to the heart of the British state, a rot that has institutionalised neoliberalism. <br><br>The irony of many of the ‘nationalism’ bashers is that they are themselves British nationalists criticising a the emergence of a cosmopolitan, pro-European society and state.<br><br>The Salmond and SNP-bashing misses the point too – they are just one party and they won’t be in power forever.

conformable_kate

There was an interesting analysis in the Guardian a day or two ago looking at the effects of the removal of all Scottish constituencies on elections over the last 50 years. It made much less difference than I would have expected, though I don't remember the details! I think there were only about 2 elections that would have returned a significantly different government. I'll have a look for the link and post it.<div><br></div><div>But as for all the rest - sympathy for wish to find new path plus romantic attachment to Celtic nationalism born of family myth and too many novels about Bonnie Prince Charlie in my teens versus disquiet about nationalism as political principle and about the impact on the rest of the UK - well, really, I have no idea what I think.</div>

ADGS

'<span style="color: rgb(85, 85, 85); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 18.1818180084229px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> The UK is a dead royalist group of landlord estates.</span>' - and Scotland has even less equal division of property ownership, and wants to keep the Queen. So independence solves neither problem. <div><br></div><div>What's really depressing me is the widespread venom and assumption of bad faith by the other side, and that's coming from both Yes and No supporters. Whichever way the vote goes, Scotland in 2015 is going to be a much more divided society than in 2013, and that can't be good.  </div>

Ali

The big historic day is here.<br><br><br>

gardener-joe

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kreuzkav

The exit polls suggest a 'No' vote.  How boring.  I was hoping for a new chapter in UK history (not the channel) rather than Devolution light.  Here's hoping for the exit polls to be wrong as sometimes they are.