[...]

miss annie

There were no exit polls Kreuzkav

kreuzkav

As always Miss Annie school mam's me.  Well the polls suggest a No vote. Sorry Miss. Stand in the corner.

kreuzkav

Anyhow, I didn't like this band when they came out back in my teens but a few Scottish friends said we'd dance in front of FP station if independence was announced.  Nice thought, but sadly probably won't happen.<div><br></div><div><br></div><div> 

ADGS

It wouldn't have been a new chapter in UK history, it would have been the end of it, as it would no longer have been U. Thank heavens that was averted, though I can certainly see why they were tempted to jump ship.

miss annie

I suspect the majority of Scots would see being U as the worst kind of insult.

timgallagher

Whilst I can completely understand the appeal of independence for Scots, and think that the idealism and engagement behind the Yes campaign was a breath of fresh air in comparison to the blandness of most Westminster politics, there was also a very ugly side to the Yes side which was very under-reported down here. <div><br></div><div>I've spent the last week in Edinburgh and lost count of the number of times I was told to f**k off back to my own country. I spoke to a lot of people who were voting No but were afraid of putting posters in their window in case they got a brick through it. Clearly the Better Together campaign was mostly dire, but I feel that a positive, progressive case for the Union can and must be made, which is much more appealing that an insular and often aggressive nationalism.</div>

Arkady

@tim - out of curiosity, what do you think is the best solution for the constitutional conundrum we now face?  In particular, to what political unit should power be devolved to in England - existing counties and cities, voluntary combinations of those, or new regions?  Also, how would you resolve the West Lothian question?

kreuzkav

@ ADGS.  It would have been a new chapter in UK history.  The UK would have had to reinvent itself as it still probably has to.  Perhaps it could have taken the U out of the name but I doubt it would just call itself Kingdom, wasn't that a TV series.  Don't forget the majority of Ireland exited the UK/Britain in 1922.  Not such a united kingdom as about 20 per cent of the land mass was taken out then.  <div><br></div><div>I don't like the way the No campaign tarred the Yes camp as being thugs. I disagreed with the heckling of Milliband. But as a Labour supporter Tim's and the below attitude is making me want to look to an alternative party and it won't be UKIP.</div><div><br></div><div>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29281819</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>;

timgallagher

<div>I'm certainly not trying to say all the Yes camp are thugs, just reporting on what I saw and and heard in Scotland. All forms of nationalism have their ugly side.</div><div><br></div>@Arkady personally, I think there are limits to how much regional devolution can achieve. I'm starting to think that an English Parliament might be a serious proposition, perhaps meeting 2 days a week in Westminster. Which would obviously sort out the West Lothian question (if not the future of the NHS as the Tories would almost certainly be in charge). What do you think? I take it you're a regional devolution man??

kreuzkav

@Tim. But it's the tarring of the nationalists I don't like.  Scotland is a nation, a country and surely it's understandable that nearly half the population want it to be independent.  As a British passport holder with Irish parents I'm happy that Ireland (the republic) is independent.  My uncle lives outside a village in Ireland and most of the good land was given to the protestants (planters). To this day they still have it.  I'm non-religious but it's no wonder that the Republic became a fundamental catholic country after what happened after 1800.  But the wounds are healing.<div><br></div><div>No one was killed in the Scottish Independence campaign as far as I know unlike in the independence movements in the former Yugoslavia.  Imagine how working class disenfranchised people felt about the Labour party telling them they should remain subjects to the Union?  I thought the Labour party were for the working class.</div><div><br></div><div>And I  know people from Scotland who were in favour of the union and made good points but at the end of the day it was about a country wanting to break the shackles of the union as most of Ireland did whatever the consequences.   Would you want the Republic of Ireland back in the union?</div>

krappyrubsnif

Who was it said that nationalism was the resort of a scoundrel. Or something. We need more togetherness, less division, fewer boundaries and more solidarity.

kreuzkav

So KRS, one big nation governed by an elite?  You're talking through your olive hat.  Nationalism is messy but it's the way the world is going.  The Union of Britain is about a load of middle class toffs controlling the rest of the population so they can have holiday houses and sent their children to public school.  That includes Labour MPs.

kreuzkav

We're not on about national socialism or UKIP but organic nationalism.  So Yugoslavia should have stayed under a dictator(Tito, cheap holidays)?  Ireland should have stayed under British rule?  Britain is a colonial power, England is a nation.  It's time that countries were self-governing and stopped being oppressed by former colonial powers.  I'm all for the EU and groups of countries co-operating but not into former colonial unions that had landlords taking over land and sending food overseas while the people on small holdings died.  Read some history. Life ain't Disney.<div><br></div><div>Anyhow, the people of Scotland voted and said NO and are slaves to British upper class/aristocracy for a while longer.  </div>

kreuzkav

And Gordon Brown and the Labour party are now devils to me:<div><br></div><div>http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09/11/gordon-browns-lies-about-labour-and-the-nhs-in-scotland/<div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>;

Detritus

I'm sorry I must have been ill informed but I thought that the union of Britain was one person one vote, and the party who gets the most seats wins or forms a coalition. If you don't like it stand for election and try and change it that way. What do you have against the middle class? Nobody has a choice of who they are born to or what school they get sent to, my son will be going to a public school when he reaches eleven, he has already spent three years at one and his abilities far outstrip children of the same age and a few years older who are in mainstream schools. If that makes me a middle class parent then I am happy with that tag, as he will be better equipped to grind the faces of the masses. We all want what is best for our offspring, and giving him the best possible start in life so he has less of a struggle is to my mind a no brainer. And I would rather have 'the elite' in charge than a socialist, the world isn't fair some people have others don't. As for Scotland I am glad it was a no vote, I am proud to be British and Britain contains Scotland.

maclondon

Tim - the English parliament idea has a number of flaws in particular how do you form a government in UK parliamentary democracy? If labour formed a government based on its Scottish and welsh MPs then while on foreign affairs or defence it can rely on a majority what happens about the NHS where iti Is unlikely that labour would have a majority. Better to go for city/region assemblies with powers similar to that proposed by the LONDON finance Commission so transport, police, education, fire, regional development, etc. and control over council tax, business rates and possibly others so that at least 50% of its spending.

Arkady

@Tim - @maclondon has rather got there before me. An English parliament is no form of devolution at all, covering as it would 53 million people instead of 64. It would be no more responsive to the needs of the people - especially if it was effectively a subset of the UK federal parliament at Westminster rather than a separate entity. And if so combined then you have the awkward problem of sometimes having a prime minister that could not push through domestic English legislation. And you can't have a working federation in which one constituent part is 85% of the population. <br><br>I don't think that there is an appetite for a fully separate English parliament or a new regional level of governance. Better to devolve power down to the existing cities and counties, or voluntary combinations thereof as have begun to emerge under the new Local Enterprise Partnerships. Problem is that this will take time and remain uneven for a long time, if not indefinitely (Manchester and London are ready for the full range of devolved powers now, Worcestershire may never be).<br><br>That unevenness means that the West Lothian question doesn't go away, and may get worse. Maybe, just maybe, a constitutional convention could disperse power sufficiently to create a functioning federation - Lords reform would be a necessary part of that. <br><br>My suspicion is that instead we will have a partial fudge, kicking the ball down the road. Scotland (and Wales and NI) will flourish with their new powers, and become increasingly dissatisfied, while England becomes more resentful. The outcome will be that the UK (and Ireland) will become a cluster of co-operating states within the EU. Which is fine with me. I don't see why solidarity should be limited to the nation state - and that's just as much a reason for breaking up the UK within a wider union than keeping it together as the current neoliberal, exceptionalist, anti-EU stitch-up. 

Arkady

<span style="font-size: 10pt;">I commend to all of you this paper by Dr Andrew Blick, which makes a strong argument for English devolution within the current system of local government, while exploring the other options too:</span><div style="font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;"><br></div><div><span style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 22.6666660308838px;">http://www.fedtrust.co.uk/filepool/Devolution_in_England.pdf</span><br></div>;

Ali

<span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 13.3333339691162px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">The Serfs of Scotland have cowered again under </span><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 13.3333339691162px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;

Ali

<span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 13.3333339691162px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Sad sad day. The Serfs of Scotland have cowered again under </span><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 13.3333339691162px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> </span><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 13.3333339691162px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">the projected fear from their establishment masters</span><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 13.3333339691162px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font face="times new roman, new york, times, serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;">Actually it was mainly little old ladies who got frightened by the relentless line of negativity from Better Together, the Banks, business and the Scottish media along with the last minute intervention by Gordon Brown.  Ironic how he has saved Cameron's skin for the time being.</span></font></span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font face="times new roman, new york, times, serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;"><br></span></font></span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font face="times new roman, new york, times, serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;">This will not go away as there is a pretty good chance  of Devo Max not being delivered as promised (whatever was actually promised) and the SNP get a mandate again in 2016 based on broken promises.  The other thing that could cause another  referendum is if England votes to leave the EU because Scotland will not want to leave.</span></font></span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font face="times new roman, new york, times, serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;"><br></span></font></span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font face="times new roman, new york, times, serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;">Also if devo max is delivered that takes Scotland a lot closer to independence and the steps to go independent be a lot less that form the present situation.</span></font></span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font face="times new roman, new york, times, serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;"><br></span></font></span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font face="times new roman, new york, times, serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;">There are also a  lot of younger people now activated in the Independence cause.</span></font></span></div><div><br></div><div><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 13.3333339691162px; line-height: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">f less than 200,000 people had moved from no to Yes it would have been won by the Yes  a lot closer than the 45/55 implies</span><br></div><div><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 13.3333339691162px; line-height: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font face="times new roman, new york, times, serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;">Salmond did  really well and I object to seeing David Cameron re framing this around English Nationalism  for his own political ends.  Strange  how he forgot to tell the Scots that we what he was going to do. Mugged again.</span></font></span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font face="times new roman, new york, times, serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;"><br></span></font></span></div><div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font face="times new roman, new york, times, serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;">Do you really think the Westminster  establishment is going to give up it reason for being there !</span></font></span></div>

miss annie

I'm pleased that this fiasco means that England will get a lot more power over it's own affairs. The Scots must be crying rivers of Irn Bru that that is one of the results.

ADGS

Yes Ali, if anyone ever votes in a way other than the way you wanted them to, that definitely means they've been fooled. It can't possibly be the case that they sincerely and honorably held different views.

Detritus

Everyone is banging on about the 45% who voted yes not getting what they wanted. Sorry that's how it works. They lost the no vote won. End of the story.

Arkady

This is democracy, not chess.

Detritus

Why would Westminster give Scotland another referendum? You can't have another one just because you don't like the result. And it won't be England leaving the EU if that happens it will be the uk, if that dark day ever does arrive I'm pretty sure we would have had a referendum on it anyway. And Salmond never did answer the questions on currency he just said we will use the pound, that's not his decision to make. Why should the bank of England be used to prop up a foreign countries banks and support a foreign countries currency because if it had been a yes vote that's what he was demanding. Instead of pinning all the blame on the no campaign who did what every political campaign wants to do and won the vote, ask yourself did the SNP answer ALL the questions it was asked? To my mind it didn't, it left enough doubt in people's minds to vote no. The better together campaign and Westminster did what it had to do to keep the country together, the SNP didn't do enough to split it up.

Ali

The Irish sucessfully shadowed the pound for 40 years.<br><br> We  do prop up other countries The UK Government baled out Ireland in 2008  by 8,000,000,000 Euros, remember a bale out is I believe a loan so you get it back.<br><br>I would  expect becasue of the risk that  Scotland would not have allowed "cowboy" banking (non) regulation as curently in the UK. Oz is a good example of good banking regulation - no bailouts there.<br><br>Of cours eit can't answer the questions until a negotiation take place. That was the Cameron political trap used so effectivly by the Better Together  side.<br><br>I fully accept the result, my point is this is not going to go away<br><br>

Ali

Burnt  at the Stake last night in Lewes<br><img src="http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/11/5/1415216069231/An-effigy-of-Scottish-Nat-012.jpg" class="maxed responsive-img" itemprop="contentURL representativeOfPage" alt="An effigy of Scottish National party leader Alex Salmond in Lewes"><br><br>Scottish Government Statement on this:<br><br>“The Tory-controlled East Sussex county council obviously view the first minister – and the 45% of Scots who voted yes – as big a threat to the Westminster establishment as Guy Fawkes, although it’s unclear why poor Nessie has been targeted.<br><br><br>