Fair play to Tesco.

Detritus

I was so angry at Tesco on SGR yesterday as I found that they don't stock poppies I dont really care about anyone's personal views on poppies, I think it's the most important day of the year. So I posted this on the Tesco Facebook page. Utterly utterly disgusted by tesco, they don't sell or stock poppies at my local store, I asked the manager why and she said she would 'take it under advisement' this is the largest supermarket chain in the country and some stores don't take part in the national day of remembrance. I tweeted them 5 times asking what the company policy on poppies is and nothing no answer, yet they proudly have a poppy on the tesco logo on twitter and facebook. Received this reply. Thanks for taking the time to get in touch. I'm really sorry to hear of your displeasure here, though I can very much understand it. We'd very much like to talk to the store's Management Team in order to look into this further for you. To that end, would you be able to confirm which store it is you visited here? I hope I hear from you again soon. I told them and got this back . Thanks for confirming that for me. I've just spoken with Barbara, one of our Duty Managers in the store, who's asked for me to pass on her apologies. She has been able to confirm that the store don't currently have poppies for sale, but she has assured me that she will be discussing this matter with Marc, the Store Manager. Hopefully, we'll be able to get these in the store soon. As we really do appreciate your frustration here, I'd like you to know that I've also created a record of this matter which will be reviewed by all relevant teams. That way, we can hopefully avoid something similar from happening again in the future. I do hope that helps. Kind regards David - Customer Care Fair play to Tesco, and I never thought I would say that. It's only a small thing but I can't begin to tell you how angry it made me.

kreuzkav

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;"> face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;">There are a lot of poppies at the start of this clip. My great grand father from Ireland died as canon fodder in France in WW1 leaving behind my grand father and his two brother to be brought up by a young mother. </span></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;">Was it worth it?</span></font></div>

miss annie

WW1 was a disaster on many fronts. Although the poppy originated as a symbol of remembrance for those killed in the First World War, most people now wear one as a way to remember those fallen in all conflicts. Not to glorify or celebrate war, but to respectfully remember those who gave their lives for a greater good. Those who condemn poppy wearers, or those who wear protest poppies etc. would do well to remember that the reason they have the freedom to express their opinions is because other people died to uphold freedom and democracy.

checkski

Couldn't disagree with you more, on this subject, Miss Annie. Especially with your idea of 'a greater good'. The slaughter of millions of people is a hideous response, even to hideous Nazism. The concept of 'hero' is a typical ruling class perversion of reality. Kreuzkav's 'cannon fodder' gives the right perspective for all wars, as far as I am concerned. Sorry, Detritus - you're a good chap, but it doesn't look as if we'll ever agree about anything!

Detritus

I don't think any war is justified at all, the mass slaughter of the trenches proved the folly of war against an opponent who had the same heavy weaponry and the same tactics. No war can be a good thing, ww1 was the European powers jockeying for position, and the appalling way we treated Germany at the end led directly to ww2. There is no glory in war and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. But I feel that to commemorate the fallen is something this country should do, it's nothing to do with chest thumping xenophobia but respect for men who did a job they didn't ask for or even want. On Sunday I will be stood with 1000's of others honouring the dead, people who never have a chance to live rather than glorifying war. They are the important ones.

checkski

You sound like a pacifist, Detritus. Your first 2 paras suggest you would have opposed WW2 as well. Is that right?

Detritus

Not sure about opposed, and I'm looking at it from a viewpoint of 60+ years of knowledge on the origin of the war. And if any war could be justified then ww2 is the one, But I have always been able to separate the war from the men who fought. Iraq was completely unacceptable and probably illegal but that doesn't mean we shouldn't commemorate the soldiers who fell.

Arkady

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;">This is why I don't wear one - though I still make a point of donating money.</span></font><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;"><br></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;">http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2012/11/01/comment-why-i-won-t-wear-a-poppy</span></font><br></div>;

Detritus

I've always worn one, from the day I saw my dad crying at the friends he lost in the Falklands. I don't think I realised just how personal it was to ex service men.

miss annie

I have just read a newspaper article on why some people are too afraid to wear a poppy for fear of reprisals. FFS. All the more reason to wear one this year.

kreuzkav

<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>I just don't like the regimentation of wearing a poppy but I would never be abusive to  or dismissive of someone who wears one.  I think we've gone a bit war crazy lately but I agree the opposition of nazism was necessary.  Hitler wouldn't have got into any peace deals.  <div><br></div><div>People fighting against Franco's fascist regime in Spain was another good case of necessary resistance.<br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>

Idoru

"This year I will wear a poppy for the last time" by WW2 veteran Harry Leslie Smith:http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith

miss annie

Absolutely respect his right to do whatever he likes poppy wise. However, I completely agree with the Guardian pick comment directly below the article - it's not the British Legion's fault that the poppy has been hijacked by those with an agenda. That entire comment sums up how I feel. Wear it or don't, it's up to you. Don't make it about glorifying war. That's not the reason anyone in their right mind wears it. It's for remembrance of the dead and fundraising for the living. I will still find protest poppies weird and offensive but that's my own view. I wouldn't find it necessary to comment on them and although I don't understand why people wear them I am glad they have the freedom to do so.

kreuzkav

Only one work friend has worn a poppy this week.  I didn't  mention it but surely there's something wrong when every respectable person feels that you should wear one and it's done without thinking  Most of them have never known anyone to die in a war and do it out of formality, like wearing a tie.

Detritus

I understand why some people don't want a poppy, and it's their personal point of view, who am I to knock it. I do have a poppy and always will but I come from a military family, great grandads in the trenches, both grandfathers landed on D-day and one fought in Korea, and my dad in Ireland, the Falklands and places he would never talk about. I suppose part of it is tradition and part respecting the sacrifice others gave so I could sit here and say this. And I also suspect that a part of it is the certain knowledge that I wouldn't have the courage to do what they did especially in the trenches, brave brave men who deserve the utmost respect. But as I said each to their own. I know very little about Franco so can't comment, and we all know about Chamberlain and "peace in our time" appeasement was never going to work.

checkski

Wear a poppy, if you wish to. Or a protest poppy, if such a thing exists - I've never seen one. Nor am I aware of any deeper issues, or pressures. What's that old super-democratic maxim? Something about hating what you say, but defending to the death(perhaps not) your right to say it.<div><br></div><div>My history tutor at U3A thinks Chamberlain has been unfairly treated by history. He was trying to avoid war, a laudable aim , I would have thought, even if it failed. And Churchill is not one of my heroes. He was bloodthirsty. Read 'Human Smoke', by Nicholson Baker, an extraordinary pacifist take on WW2.</div>

Sutent

When I was young family told me horrendous stories of how the British army raped, stole and murdered during the colonial invasion of India.

Detritus

You can say the same about the Spanish, French, Portuguese, Dutch any of the old colonial powers, they did horrible things because they could. Personally I don't see the point in Germany or Japan apologising for what happened in ww2 nobody in power there has anything to do with what happened. But one thing I am sure of is if the Spanish had colonised India instead of the British there would have been much worse atrocities committed and I'm not anti Spanish but religion would have been brought into it, the British just wanted cold hard commodities and land . I just feel that as a nation we are forgetting how much of a debt we owe the people who fought and died. As for Churchill yes he was bloodthirsty and often wrong but it was different times and a different view of the world, he was there when the country needed him. It's not often I agree with Checkski or Kreuzkav so it makes a pleasant change, I'm sure normal service will be resumed soon. And yes I probably am a pacifist, never had any desire to join up and it was expected of me, but you have met me and I'm not military material, I slept outside the commons for a week at the start of the Iraq crusade (because thats what is was) nothing can justify taking human life, ww2 was a necessary evil.

conformable_kate

Protest poppies: white ones have been about for years, with the idea that they commemorate but also say no more war. I think some people wear both ... You could check out this link for more discussion: http://noglory.org/. They have apparently sold out of white poppies due to unexpected demand, though they suggest the Peace Pledge Union may still have some.<div><br></div><div>I generally have both red and white, but I get so conflicted about the issues that I tend to end up wearing neither. No easy decisions, really, and lots to worry about. </div><div><br></div><div>I am very indignant though that the British Legion this year has adopted an anti-war song (The Green Fields of France) and dropped the last verse - actually the whole song is all anti-war so heaven knows what they are making of the rest of it - but this is the dropped verse:</div><div><br></div><div><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Ah young Willie McBride, I can’t help wonder why, </span><br style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Do those that lie here know why did they die?</span><br style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">And did they believe when they answered the cause, </span><br style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Did they really believe that this war would end wars? </span><br style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Well the sorrow, the suffering, the glory, the pain,</span><br style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">The killing and dying, were all done in vain.</span><br style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">For Willie McBride, it all happened again, </span><br style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="color: rgb(68, 68, 68); font-family: 'Open Sans', 'Lucida Grande', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: -0.140000000596046px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">And again, and again, and again, and again.</span><br><div><br></div></div>

ADGS

WWII wasn't the result of Versailles, it was the result of Versailles' provisions not being enforced. Precisely because of Britain and France feeling guilty, not wanting another war - they ensured they'd get one. Had they retained a little more backbone in the early thirties, the Nazis would have fallen as soon as they first pushed and were pushed back against, before they could dig in. And millions of lives would have been saved. <div><br></div><div>Nicholson Baker is a twit. </div><div><br></div><div>Kreuzkav, surely the fact that *one* work friend is wearing a poppy itself disproves any notion of regimentation? </div><div>(I work near Tower Hill, where they're not far off refusing to let people out of the station without a poppy, and that makes me very uneasy)</div>

checkski

You've read the book then, ADGS? Somehow I doubt it.

rikki

In renaming what was essentially the brutal murder of mainly working-class people, as sacrifice, the delusions and lies around both world wars are perpetuated and form the excuse for further 'just wars', which in hindsight and invariably, have always been exercises in military and corporate fascism, and are an essential part of capitalist economy, akin to mother earth's forest fires.<br><br>The first world war was essentially the first big oil war, and in the lead up to the second, the west, especially American corporations, supported and armed Hitler in much the same way as more recently they did the same for Saddam Hussein. Don't forget who sold the Germans the gas they used against the Jews and the Roma, and the homosexuals, and to those who say "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear", don't forget it was IBM that devised and installed the database systems that catalogued the Jews - they didn't think they had anything to hide, until being Jewish was a death sentence.<br><br>So yes, the red poppy should be a remembrance of millions of fallen, but what is the point of remembering their deaths if we do nothing to stop further deaths now. The UK and US have attacked Iraq and Libya in the past decade, leaving both countries in a far worse state than they were, and raining down abominable weapons like depleted uranium, and white phosphorous to poison their lands for centuries to come. So, if you want to wear a red poppy, then that is your choice and you are thankfully free to do so, but I hope it signifies that you want to do everything in your power to stop further senseless killing. If not, you are at best deeply misled, or maybe just an idiot, or at worst, a vile hypocrite. If that statement upsets you, then remember your 'heroes' 'sacrificed' their lives so that I am free to make that observation, so swallow your venom, and rejoice.<br>

miss annie

Like I said no one in their right minds wears a poppy to celebrate, glorify or promote war. It is fascinating that in this debate as in the debate about religion, the antis are the ones that seem unable to just live with the other point of view, but instead pitch in with insults and aggression. The poppy wearers seem to be the pacifists here judging by comments. How do you do everything in your power to stop war aside from voting? As we know, petitions, letters to your MP and protests mostly achieve nothing at all, the poll tax march/riot was the last one I remember that fairly smartly prompted a change of policy. They do seem to salve the conscience of those that go on them though. My family roots are in Germany and Ireland. A couple of generations back from there are Jewish relatives. I'm well aware of the horrors of the first and second world wars. I don't wear a poppy with any kind of war mongering spirit or as a patriotic symbol, although I would tick the patriotic box generally being a huge Monarchist, or because I feel under pressure to conform. My reasons are mine.

checkski

Your first paragraph is uncalled for, Miss Annie. I can't find much in the way of insults and aggression posted by the antis, above. Perhaps you thought Rikki was calling poppy-wearers vile: he wasn't. His remarks are addressed to warmongers. I have no doubt we share something in this debate: a genuine horror of mass slaughter. The problematic difference between us is that you see it in terms of heroism and sacrifice, whereas I and others see it (in WW1, and, more controversially, WW2) as legalised, sanitised, interstate mass murder. Such a perspective will upset you and Detritus. This is a powerful subject, and argument will get heated. Nothing personal, I promise you. Over the years I have come to see you and D as decent humane people with politics very different from my own. Sorry, but that's life!

checkski

Your second paragraph tells it as it sadly is. It's almost impossible to stop war, as an ordinary citizen. 2 million of us were on the Iraq demo. We now know it stopped Blair in his tracks, but only for a few days. At least history will not be able to say the war had popular support. Perhaps politicians will think twice in the future - they will not want opposition on that scale. If there had been no demo, it would make it easier for warmongers like Blair the next time. 

checkski

PS. Equating going on demos with salving one's conscience is an uncalled for sneer. I loathe demos, and would far rather be at home with a sudoku. We were there because we fervently hoped it would make a difference.

miss annie

I purposely haven't used the word heroes at all in this discussion. By and large the men and women killed in wars throughout history have been cannon fodder and marched off to war with little knowledge of what they were in for. Individuals stand out - Edith Cavell for one. I am not upset by your view. I don't agree with it but it doesn't upset me. Working for a bookshop with a large group of highly educated people has led to some lively debates on this (and many other subjects). I'm able to fervently disagree with someone but still accept that their point of view is valid.

checkski

'Those who gave their lives for a greated good'<div><br></div><div>'Other people died to uphold freedom and democracy'</div><div><br></div><div>True, you didn't use the word hero. But these 2 quotes from one of your earlier posts are surely ways of describing heroism. You now join us in seeing the dead as cannon fodder. I don't think you can have it both ways.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm glad you're not upset. Seeing insults and aggression where there weren't any suggested you might have been.</div>

JoeV

Checkski, I'm curious, why couldn't those who were killed in WWI be both heroes and cannon fodder? 

checkski

It hinges on choice, JoeV. To be a hero, I would have to struggle with my strong inclination to be a coward. Cannon fodder imples no more choice than being sent to the gallows.

JoeV

To me it hinges on intention. In WWI, many young men didn't wait to be called up and signed up knowing full well that a likely consequence of doing so was death. So in a way, both options are true and true at the same time. What I find in these types of discussion is that too often there's a black and white conclusion to something that is very grey. Which I think is part of what miss annie meant. For instance, a person can have faith and be tolerate, and conversely, not believing in god does not always equate to be open minded and accepting of others.