Regeneration conference thingy

Mirandola

Anyone go? 

Arkady

Yes. Some good, wide-ranging discussions and workshops. The no-shows from TfL/City North made it slightly awkward.<br><br>The biggest thing I took away from it was the lack of scrutiny concerning the closure of the Wells Terrace entrance. As you know, my take on this is that temporary access should be possible throughout the majority of the 2.5 years between the closure of the existing entrance and the opening of the new one. When I put this to Cllr Greeing (Islington) he said that they hadn't even considered it. I just got off the phone to the Islington Tribune about it, so perhaps we will learn something in due course.<br><br>It looks like a Finsbury Park Neighbourhood Forum - with associated planning powers - might get off the ground. So we might need to think again about whether to start one for Stroud Green, as I predict a territorial bunfight.<br>

Arkady

(oh, and hello to the various people who came and said hi- stop lurking and post more)

NorthNineteen

I had planned to go but with no TfL/City North I decided to play tennis instead - plus the workshop topics didn't look great.<div><br></div><div>I agree about the scrutiny - I've heard it's highly unlikely to be 2.5 years but i still think they should try to put temporary access in sooner - I wonder whether the fact the rest of the station is going to be gated has made this more difficult.</div>

gardener-joe

...

conformable_kate

say more! Why were tfl/ city north no shows? Were they supposed to turn up but bottled out? I assume they are responsible for the closure, after all.

Banbers

I was there but didn't go to the workshops. Interesting about the Neighbourhood Plan thingy. But wouldn't it be better just to join the Finsbury Park one rather than start a separate one for Stroud Green? Or have they already decided on the boundaries (I suspect I'm late to the discussions on this!).<div><br></div><div>Apparently the CEO of United (the developer) was invited but couldn't come. Don't know about TFL. </div>

Arkady

(Long, sorry)<div><br></div><div>It's not clear exactly what happened. In the case of the local businesses, it seems that the Trust only invited the head honchos rather than making a general appeal for delegates to come and speak. There was a fella from 'Central London Forward' who gave a brief overview of the scheme, but anyone who has read this thread knows about 5000 times more about it.<br><br>Tfl will be doing some sort of public meeting at some point.<br><br>So, about Neighbourhood Forums (as designated by the Localism Act, rather than any old grouping). They are supposed to be hyper-local. Broadly speaking they will end up being broadly redevelopment-focused (as at Tottenham) or broadly conservation-focused (as at Highgate). <br><br>Some people at the conference were arguing for a 'Greater Finsbury Park' idea, bringing in all the neighbourhoods that surround the actual park. Is suspect that few, if any people consider that to be a single neighbourhood, and that any plan attempted by the forum would be too brodd and too much work. <br><br>My view is that Finsbury park needs a forum that focusses on the redevelopment and regeneration of the area round the station and Seven Sisters Road, along with the neighbouring estates - similar to the area designates as the 'finsbury park Town centre' (whether or not you like the nomenclature).<br><br>Stroud Green (as with Harringay Green Lanes for instance) has different needs. Consider the area either side of the Stroud Green road, north from the junction with Lennox/Woodstock, right up to Crouch Hill Station. There are few redevelopment opportunities here. I'd argue that the planning challenges have more to do with conservation and restoration - cleaning up existing buildings, fixing the streetscape, restoring shopfronts. <br><br>My worry is that a Finsbury Park Neighbourhood Forum would a) end up dividing Stroud Green in two for planning purposes, and b) neglecting Stroud Green.<br><br>Three years ago I did a survey to try to establish a boundary. The results are here, in a lovely map: http://batchgeo.com/map/stroudgreensurvey<br><br>And this was a first-stab attempt to draw a boundary based on those results (along with various other local proposals being made at the time - only Highgate got off the ground, and cover a smaller area than shown here):<br><br>https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?ll=51.572962,-0.138617&msa=0&spn=0.042089,0.077162&mid=zoA6neQQft6g.knc2DJBArPDk</div>;

Arkady

So, now that there's an active traders association and perhaps a growing sense of a Stroud Green identity (or even 'village'!), maybe we should look at this again.<div><br></div><div>Here's that map:</div><div><br></div><div><img src="http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae221/Redarkady/SGBoundaries.png"><br></div>

kreuzkav

I really wanted to go to this but had already made plans to go away last weekend.  Thanks Arkady for mentioning excessive length of closure of Well's Terrace FP entrance with Cllr Greeing.  I will try to attend any further meetings concerning developments. 

Banbers

Thanks Arkady<div><br></div><div>I live in Thorpedale Road so I'd get to make it into the Stroud Green forum! Though I'm much more worried about what's happening in the Finsbury "Town Centre" and its effect on the area as a whole. It's certainly a tricky one.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

miss annie

What are the actual real life boundaries of Stroud Green? There was fairly strong opinion that it only goes as far south as Tollington Park in the real world. My lovely road was not included then. Of course now we have good stuff on Clifton Terrace, Fonthill Rd and the very bottom end of SGR everyone wants to include that too but it is not Stroud Green. I liked the I Love N4 thing much better than Stroud Green Village. N4 is a real community (as proven here) rather than a thing contrived by business people. Not saying they aren't lovely people but they are doing it for their benefit not ours. Bit like the idiots who want to rebrand Bloomsbury, Fitzrovia and Holborn as Midtown.

miss annie

I notice that the map above skirts round the edges of the two biggest social housing blocks. The Andover - Moray Rd, and Holly Park - Crouch Hill. This makes me uneasy, wonder why people there can't be included and have a voice.

Arkady

Morning Annie<div style="font-style: normal;"><br></div><div>There are no 'actual real life' border to Stroud Green, if you mean legally defined, unless you stuck to Stroud Green ward in Haringey. And that would be bonkers, as it a) excludes all the Islington bits of Stroud Green (including Islington's SG Conservation area!) and includes Hornsey Vale which nobody thinks is Stroud Green!<br><div style="font-style: normal;"><br></div><div>"<span style="font-style: italic;">There was fairly strong opinion that it only goes as far south as Tollington Park in the real world. My lovely road was not included then.</span>" - what was this from? The <a href="http://batchgeo.com/map/stroudgreensurvey">survey I linked to</a> is the only reasonably formal study that's been done on this as far as I know, and it came up with rather different results. That survey asked users of Stroudgreen.org where they lived, and whether they considered their area to be Stroud Green or something else. In the discussions we had at the time there were a million and one different opinions, as there still are!<br></div><div style="font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="font-style: normal;">I'm a bit hesitant about N4 being a 'real community', much less that it is proven here. It's just a postcode area. Stroud Green is a tiny subset of N4 - the latter covers Harringay/Green Lanes, Manor House, Blackstock, Brownswood, etc. </div><div style="font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="font-style: normal;">There's quite a bit of evidence that people identify with their local high street and its environs, hence the Stroud Green Road and it's hinterland making a reasonably coherent area. As in most places in London, the borders are blurry!</div><div style="font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="font-style: normal;">The line on the map was drawn around those survey results, with a tiny bit of deference to existing boundaries (e.g. the N4 boundary in the east). The proposed map *does* include Moray Road. It doesn't include Andover because a) there were no responses from there and b) don't suppose anyone has ever argued it formed part of SG, even before the 19th century when the definition was much broader than today. I mean, the Andover is one of then most famous features of Finsbury Park, right?</div><div style="font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="font-style: normal;">I can't see an argument for pushing the line up Crouch Hill to the junction with Mount View. but a) again there were no survey results from here and b) there is already a <a href="https://crouchhillhornseyrise.wordpress.com/">nascent neighbourhood forum</a> for Crouch Hill/Hornsey Rise that takes in Holly Park - residents of which were a big voice in it when I was observing its early stages.</div><div style="font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="font-style: normal;">The idea that nothing south of Tollington Park could be in Stroud Green will no doubt come as a big shock to anyone associated with Stroud Green School, or Stroud Green Christian Church (round the corner from your house!) for that matter. </div><div style="font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="font-style: normal;">No doubt there is overlap between FP and SG, rather than a clear boundary. But if one DID have to fix such boundary...</div></div>

miss annie

<p>In a lot of the older threads people were quite convinced that SG stopped at Tollington Park. Because I'm bored and waiting for a really boring meeting to start, I've looked them up. Wasn't the forum different in those days.</p><p><a href="http://www.stroudgreen.org/discussion/4958/shoreditchification/p7">http://www.stroudgreen.org/discussion/4958/shoreditchification/p7</a></p><p><a href="http://www.stroudgreen.org/discussion/comment/24459/#Comment_24459">http://www.stroudgreen.org/discussion/comment/24459/#Comment_24459</a></p><p><a href="http://www.stroudgreen.org/discussion/390/stroud-green-border/p2">http://www.stroudgreen.org/discussion/390/stroud-green-border/p2</a></p><p>I do think there is community in N4, it might not be one that the majority of members of this forum are involved in but it is there. Because, as previously discussed, I talk to neighbours and people in the area I know that there is all sorts of good stuff happening.</p><p> This forum does seem to have a type, (which is not a criticism), reasonably affluent, university educated folk working either freelance or in professional jobs. These are the kind of people who want SG to change to what they think it should be (Shoreditch meets Upper St), rather than what it actually is for the majority of people who live here.</p>

NorthNineteen

Stroud Green is many different things at different times.<br><br>- weekdays<br>- weekday evenings and during the day Sunday<br>- Friday evenings and Saturdays<br><br>Each has a completely different feel and type of people.  <br>

NorthNineteen

I love these threads! I think the SG empire is expanding - the fruit and veg place is called Stroud Green after all.  Seasons also thinks it is in Finsbury Park.<br><br>IN one of the posts Annie posted this was included:<br><br>https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=51.570401,-0.107889&ie=UTF8&om=1&msa=0&spn=0.026674,0.079823&z=14&hl=en&mid=zD7vkCL1zIBM.kqsRUoT-sMAo<br><br>This pretty matches my thoguhts on SG.<br>

NorthNineteen

"This forum does seem to have a type, (which is not a criticism), reasonably affluent, university educated folk working either freelance or in professional jobs" sounds like most forums?<br>

Ali

<p>I am sure that Seasons says it is in Finsbury Park so people can relate to where is is  vis a vis the station.</p><p>Why not change  the station  name to Stroud Green?</p>

miss annie

Because it is next to Finsbury Park - among many other reasons.

krappyrubsnif

There is a clear boundary between Finsbury Park and Stroud Green.    It's a whopping great six-line railway bridge - and no bus route.

NorthNineteen

When you google stroud green this comes up on their blurb "<span class="st">A cosy, neighbourhood restaurant in <em>Stroud Green</em>, North London, showcasing the best available, local seasonal ingredients".  Note it only appears on google and not their actual website for some reason...<br></span>

Arkady

Season sometimes says it's in FP, but also is the mainstay of 'Stroud Green Village'.<div><br></div><div>@NorthNineteen';s map excludes the 'upper east side', which has Stroud Green Library, the Stroud Green Residents Association, Stroud Green Baptist Church, half of the Stroud Green Conservation Area, and most importantly - MY HOUSE.</div><div><br></div><div>Krappy has it as usual - the railway bridge is the major psychological barrier. I'd tend to draw the line at Woodstock/Lennox though.</div>

Arkady

@MissAnnie - there's quite a bit of you asserting that SG stops at upper Tollington in those threads (sometimes with the assertion that I agree with you) and rather more of people disagreeing with you!<div><br></div><div>(Edit - looks like back in 2009 I might have agreed with you, but I was young and naive, and had lived here for one month).</div>

NorthNineteen

Seasons address online is the rather long winded; Stroud Green Road, Stroud Green, Finsbury Park, London.....<br><br>Maybe, but I could say those namings are as much to do with the ward name as the place name...<br><br>But yeah, I wasn't actually looking at that part of the map, I'd put the boundary more up toward Mount View Road with a west boundary of Mount Pleasant Villas - not sure whether I'd go all the way to Harringay Station.<br><br>I wonder where the perceived cut-off between Finsbury Park and Stoke Newington is to the south east?<br>

Arkady

Stroud Green Library is next to Harringay station!

miss annie

Yes, not sure why I thought so strongly that you had ostracised my road. Anyway, it's quite nice to revisit the old boundaries debate now that SGR has some fashionable places at the historically more downmarket end. So Dotori definitely not Stroud Green? Finsbury Park station is Stroud Green if you use Wells Terrace? Confusing innit.

NorthNineteen

Dotori is not Stroud Green and the main entrance to FP station is from the 'other side'.<br><br>It's going to be weird going through that entrance during the works - it always feels like a different world.<br>

NorthNineteen

<font face="Arial, Verdana"><span style="font-size: 13.3333330154419px; line-height: normal;">http://www.british-history.ac.uk/os-1-to-10560/middlesex/012</span></font><div><font face="Arial, Verdana"><span style="font-size: 13.3333330154419px; line-height: normal;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana"><span style="font-size: 13.3333330154419px; line-height: normal;">Turns out Finsbury Park (park itself) was built on the land of Stroudgreen Farm - I think we should expand the SG borders!</span></font></div>

alcargill

<p>Hi everyone,</p><p>I've just joined the online community this afternoon after moving from Highbury to Stroud Green (Tollington Park) over Christmas. Really interested (and totally furious) to read above about the closure of Well Terrace exit for potentially as long as 2.5years. I was hoping someone could tell me please how local residents get invited to these public discussions or is it select individuals speaking for the masses? And are their minutes or anything that residents in the area can read to learn more about what is to happen as City North commences and other development plans?</p><p><br></p><p>Thanks </p>

NorthNineteen

Welcome!<br><br>Zero public consultation regarding this, appears it's all been behind closed door discussions between the developers, TfL/Network Rail and LB Islington officers - it appears councillors didn't even really know about it.<br><br>The main source we have found out this is from TfL Papers:<br><span style="font-family: Arial, Verdana;"><span style="font-size: 13.3333330154419px; line-height: normal;"><a href="http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/rup-20150212-part-1-item07-finsbury-park-step-free.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/rup-20150212-part-1-item07-finsbury-park-step-free.pdf</a><br><br>More stuff on this thread:<br>http://stroudgreen.org/discussion/4517/finsbury-park-station-city-north-development/p6<br><br>The above thread also includes plans of the development - when it's done it will be good, just 2.5 years of disruption is pretty rubbish.  I should add, I'd heard it would be more likely 18 months as TfL don't want the entrance shut for longer than needed, the additional year will be until the new step-free access is open.<br></span></span>