Los Guadales

bennyfromtheblok

I agree that it is a show of force, because for so long the police turned a blind eye and had to do something. There are very few victimless crimes, all those people selling SIM cards and dodgy phones bought them from people who nicked them at best or mugged people to get them. Not to mention that they are pretty openly selling drugs. I would not care where people are from, if a bunch of middle class white lads from Hampstead behaved that way and intimidated the way they do then I'd want them dealt with just the same.

rainbow_carnage

I've been an immigrant twice, the first time as a child and the second time when I was 20. I've studied here, I've worked here, I've paid my taxes. At no point was I tempted to start nicking credit cards, even after a fellow immigrant stole mine on Blackstock Road. Some would argue that these people have no choice; the immigration system has forced them into a life of crime. That's nonsense. If you're going to break the law to earn a living, there are plenty of places that hire illegals under the table. I worked with a 30-something Algerian man at my last job. He washed dishes 60 hours a week so he could pay his rent and send some money home. When I told him I lived in Finsbury Park, he apologised for the men that hang around Blackstock Road. He wanted me to know that not all Algerians were like that and that he was embarrassed to be associated with them. Of course, nicking mobile phones is easier than washing dishes.

ADGS

Is it, though? I'm always struck by how much hard work and risk is involved in a life of crime for comparatively little reward. Small scale crime, that is - obviously if you can rip off millions then it's worth it and you canb generally evade any sanction. But the average pickpocket or drug dealer doesn't seem to live a life of luxury and they're out on the streets at all hours, it's worse than being a sweeper.

JoeV

Working off the books is illegal and a crime just like nicking mobiles.

rainbow_carnage

@JoeV - Of course. But, in my mind at least, working off the books is nowhere near as bad as stealing wallets, mobiles, etc. I doubt anyone here can claim that he's never done anything technically illegal. But there's wrong and then there's really wrong. @ADGS - Nicking mobiles carries a certain amount of risk, but it doesn't requite much physical or mental effort. And while the rewards aren't great, they must be enough to justify that minimal risk/effort. Otherwise no one would do it. I imagine they enjoy hanging around Blackstock Rd at all hours, chatting and perving at girls. It's a social activity. I doubt they consider it work.

ADGS

Yep, evading tax on minimum wage jobs is terribly naughty. You have to make enough money that you're evading much more tax, but paying a top lawyer to tell you how to do it - then you're fine.

miss annie

I agree with ADGS, unless you're the grande fromage I reckon a life of crime is really not much of a life.

JoeV

@rainbow I don’t think we’re disagreeing only that it seems illogical to me to say that immigrants don’t need to steal or scam because if they were really ‘hardworking’ they can commit lesser crimes by working off the books.


It also seems to me that huge assumptions are made about a person when he or she is labelled an immigrant. They come in all shapes, sizes an colours and run the gamut of socioeconomic strata and I sometimes think it’s easy to comment when you don’t know people’s circumstances or their motivations

American bankers working in the City are immigrants. They don’t need to scam or steal either but they sometimes do. So why don’t their activities give immigrants a bad rep to the same degree a bloke hanging out on Blackstock Road does?

There are thieves and scammers in the world and the people who engage in such activities will do so no matter where they live.

(and for what it’s worth: all immigrants should feel grateful for being allowed to come to live and work in this country – I do – it’s a privilege.)

Slabber

Working off the books isn't illegal in the sense that theft is. It's not a criminal offence unless you're doing it to avoid tax, rather than because you don't have a work permit.

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rainbow_carnage

@JoeV - American bankers do have a pretty lousy reputation. As in most cases, a few bad apples ruin it for everyone else. If the Blackstock Rd men were English, and they stood around all day blocking the pavement and making comments at passing girls (not to mention selling stolen shit), I'd be equally annoyed. It has nothing to do with the fact that they're immigrants. The only reason I mentioned it is because anix had used their status to justify them not having proper jobs. And yes, it's hard when you don't have the legal right to work, but it in no way justifies stealing other people's stuff. Btw, I'm not intimidated. It's just unpleasant.

Slabber

So Misscara is attractive enough to get wolf whistles. Interesting.

Papa

My favourite thing about the great Blackstock Road raid was that the police station on the same road is not open to the public. ...and the police force wonders why people treats it with disdain. If we're generalising, North African men like to hang out, typically this will be done without women, and standing about not doing much is considered by them to be an enjoyable social activity. It's unfortunate others see this as threatening, but it is possibly not their fault in the same way that teenagers can't really be blamed for the same thing. That doesn't mean there isn't a plenty of crime at that end of Blackstock Road, but that also doesn't mean everyone at that end of Blackstock Road is a criminal. Oh, and I've seen plenty of American bankers hassle women.

anix

Men hanging around in the streets is common in many cultures, and the guys in blackstock road are being watched so they can not all be criminals. The occasional hassle of men making a pass i personally take it with a pinch of salt, and have felt far more intimidated sometimes by football fans.
ADGS, the Guardian at the time and on the false claims presented to us agreed with the invasion of Irak, hardly extremist.
There are too many things that are illegal; smoking pot, not paying your licence fee, not paying the rights taxes etc I try to follow my own moral code, not getting caught and leave it at that.

miss annie

Gosh, I wish I could live so freely. Sadly my moral code dictates that I should abide by the laws of the country that I have chosen to live in. If we all chose which laws we fancied abiding by and which laws didn't really suit our lifestyle choices we would be in a sorry state of affairs.

ADGS

'extremist Guardian-reader' does not indicate that all Guardian readers are extremists, it indicates that they have an extremist wing. When they run editorials by Hizb ut'Tahrir members and the traitor Galloway, I don't think that's an unfair allegation.

Agreed that drug prohibition is an absurd and unjust law, but the license fee? It's about the only tax I don't resent, the BBC is probably one of the world's finest institutions.

anix

i respect that. i dont get why one should hide to light a joint, when alcohol is far more damaging and is costing us far more to the tax payers.

anix

ADGS, freedom of expression i guess.
Agree on the BBC; BBC4 alone is worth my licence fee and gladly pay it.

ADGS

Does anyone still hide to light a joint? I regularly get a whiff of one when walking along SGR, even in the morning (which, as with the people brandishing cans at that hour, strikes me as making a bit of an early start).

miss annie

They'll be students!

Papa

'Sadly my moral code dictates that I should abide by the laws of the country that I have chosen to live in.' I try to abide by a moral code on the basis that it works better than the laws, which I can then conveniently ignore when I feel like it. Although your tactic could be good for ones brought in after I was born - then I can argue I was here first. However, I can see how this pick and choose approach can be slightly more problematic when condoned for those who have no qualms in robbing, stabbing and breaking and entering, rather than those indulging in the odd speeding offence and joint. Mind you it's probably their moral compass that needs some work, rather than simply being reminded what the law is.

anix

miss annie; clearly not talking of serious breaches, and some times the law needs to be tested to be improved, be made less hypocritical and to work for all.

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Eliz

Anix, just for the record, the Guardian didn't support the war in Iraq but its sister paper the Observer did. Although both papers are from the same publishing group they have different editors and don't always follow the same line.

I completely agree with Misscara, I find Blackstock one of the safest roads to walk down at night because there are so many people around. The scariest roads are the silent, deserted ones where you know there's no one around to help if someone dodgy comes along.

Slabber

In Natural Law and Natural Rights, Professor John Finnis describes the legal system as a means of co-ordinating human behaviour, such that one authoritative solution is more efficient than each individual exercising their own judgement as to what is the best course of action. In other words, a legal system would be necessary even in a society of angels.

The effectiveness of the system is dependent on the authoritative status of the law. That is where the moral weight of the duty to obey the law is derived from. To the extent that we choose to exercise our own judgement rather than follow the law, we are undermining the effectiveness of the very system from which we benefit. It is why it is wrong to jump a red light in the middle of the night.

And it also provides a justification for punishment. To the extent that we have exercised our own freedom of action contrary to the law, to the same extent we have our freedom restricted, either through loss of property (ie a fine) or liberty. This compensation is necessary to restore the balance in the system such that we all benefit from the law and are subject to it equally.

Personally, I'd be up for a massive money-making scam if I thought I'd get away with it.

Slabber

I studied jurisprudence at university. That's why I know this shit.

Arkady

In general terms I agree with Finnis on this. However, the problem with such ‘natural law’ arguments is when the ‘authoritative solution’ does not correspond with the key principle around which a rational legal order must be based – the utilitarian harm principle. In other words law should be based on the principle that people can do whatever they want, as long as they are not harming others*. So people who rob, steal, injure or yes – skip red lights- should be punished proportionally with the harm or potential harm. But when the law tells me that – to use an example above – I can’t use a particular substance because the authorities have decided it is not good for me, especially when the harm to individuals and to society of prohibition is so empirically manifest, then the law is an ass. In which case obeying that particular law is not a moral imperative.

If one indulged in a money-making scam, and that scam harmed others, then ones actions would be morally bankrupt.

*The fun starts, of course, when we have to define harm.

Arky

Arkady

Slabber, was it actually jurisprudence? Are Oxford not the only UK university with a legal degree with that title?
A

Slabber

There's a chapter on civil disobedience but I can't remember what it says.

Yes, it was Oxford. University College.

Slabber

If we were selling fresh air in a bag and people bought it, would that be morally bankrupt or would they deserve to lose money for being so stupid?