residential parking permits.

rosesky · October 2012

thank you so much fro ur kind offer Graeme. I do in fact have some passes, Thanks everybody for the discussion. It has clarified a lot for me to have this feedback. thank you Papa L. for your succinct comment which really hit the nail on the head for me, and if it is okay i will paraphrase your comment in my appeal letter. I would not have an argument at all if haringey was clear on the point of wether it sends reminders or not but they are totally ambiguous, and by their own admission , the fact is to renew a permit you have to supply various bits of information before you can renew anyway, and without a letter stating the procedure, I have no idea what info I need to send. It's a lot of work without the forms telling you the procedure, and if you have no computer you are well and truly sunk ! Ali, if you could see my kitchen wall, with it's sea of reminders and my calendar stuffed to the gills with appointments ....you would smile. The problem is I also forget to look at my calendar. Menopause really does knock out ur memory big time. It is quite scarey. My female friends and i laugh about this between ourselves, but the impact on everyday life can be huge. I forget even the simplest things. I momentarily forget names of people i have known for years !!! Sad but true. Anyway...got to go join a long long queue now ...but hopefully the kafkaesque nightmare will soon be over and i will be able to park outside my house again....... many thanks to you all for your support Caro

Calouste · October 2012

I've had a reminder from Haringey, by post every year so far. When we moved to Stroud Green the mid year transfer of permits between zones was handled very well. I'm guessing reminders are automated and the staff on the helpline don't want to commit to saying the have or have not been sent out. I would question the reliability of Royal Mail rather than that of an automated postal reminder not being generated. That said I will be diarising by permit renewal from now on.

vetski · October 2012

We got caught out once (when CPZs changed), and almost caught out another time (emergency dash to Wood Green) - no need to diarise, as the date is now branded into our memories! Nothing like a fine to concentrate the mind...

Ali · October 2012

I was suggesting you use you electronic calenda and get it to e-mail you can'yt miss that ! Someone talked money above: Haringey Council’s own figures show a surplus of £5,544,000 made from parking, an increase over last year of £2,211,000 got that here <A href="http://www.hamhighbroadway.co.uk/news/rejecting_a_haringey_wide_20mph_zone_is_daft_1_1673613">http://www.hamhighbroadway.co.uk/news/rejecting_a_haringey_wide_20mph_zone_is_daft_1_1673613</A>; means they can very easily fund people to provide a service for re-newal, I bet you it is a one stop shop for all sorts when you go to the Customer Services Centre

vetski · October 2012

The One-Stop Shop in Wood Green has got better, but from such a low base that it is still an exceptionally frustrating place to have to visit. I nearly died of rage when I got a parking ticket while queuing to renew my CPZ permit - the queue was so long I overran the meter! Several years ago now, and while I appreciate the irony, I still have a total sense of humour failure when I think about it.

rosesky · October 2012

I have been told to expect to queue for hours.....at the one stop shop, and have been too busy working to afford that time...so am using my vouchers to park at the moment. The way that I see it is this is a basic service,and Haringey is the service provider, and because one needs forms and information to renew a permit, reminders need to be sent, and if they sometimes go astray, then the recipient should not automatically be fined. there should be some leeway in the system.Every car owner needs a permit...absolutely nobody is going to default on purpose. It is akin to other basic services such as gas, phone, car tax. We have to have them so we pay willingly. Thanks for the link Ali.....that will going into the appeal too. Interestingly someone sent me this link today <a href="http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/lfi/DNWA-8ZFCU3">http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/lfi/DNWA-8ZFCU3</a><a href="http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/lfi/DNWA-8ZFCU3"> </a>Government action to enshrine Town Hall transparency as an everyday activity will now also open up punitive parking charges to public scrutiny, Local Government Secretary Eric Pickles announced yesterday. "As part of that we will expose a great council cash cow cover-up unmasking punitive parking practices that hit residents in the pocket. ALLELLUJAH.......about time ! this info will also be in my appeal. I will let you know how I get on, but I don't anticipate I will be paying this fine. I shall contest it to the bitter end...on principleSometimes we have to stick up for what we truly believe if only to set an example for our children.

Arkady · October 2012

The principle you want to teach your children is that they needn’t pay their bills on time unless someone reminds them? I’m not sure this is how you should be interpreting this parable for them. In your frustrated wrath and disappointment you may have this turned upside down a bit.

rosesky · October 2012

The principle I wish to teach my son is to speak out for the things you believe to be right. Just because i have differing ideas to yours Arkady, about what is fair and what is unfair, and then decide to stand up for those principles, does not make me wrathful. It simply makes me a person with a different opinion to yours. You too are entitled to do the same thing.

Roy · October 2012

There's a difference between being charged interest on late payments of moneys due (which is standard commercial practice) and being fined £120 for being two days late. I'm sure many muggers get let off with lesser punishments - the punishment here does not fit the crime.

Brodiej · October 2012

@Rosesky. Don't worry about some of the responses on here, its not a good day for some people if they don't try and make someone feel stupid. Im a bit bored of it to be honest. <div> </div><div>Everyone keeps calling these communications from whichever council "reminders". It could also be called an "invitation to make a repeat purchase", so its in their interests to make contact just like any purchase that expires and can be renewed. Now we are on e-permits in Islington, i expect to be prompted at renewal time as i have nothing to physically refer to on a day to day basis to steer me. Given they've gone all internet crazy, i'd hope they sent me an "e" mail rather than a letter otherwise its more waste.</div><div> </div><div>Words cannot start to describe my hatred of Islington council and its parking policies. I've learnt to accept it now, but its one of the least transparent aspects of how council money is collected and spent and as such makes me think it is implicitly deceitful. </div>

miss annie · October 2012

I think that this discussion perfectly illustrates the mindset of selfish car owners whinging on about how much it costs to park in London and how you should have the right to park where you like, when you like and everyone should just deal with it because you pay and get fined if you forget to pay. Well tough! A car is a luxury. It is your responsibilty to pay for it. This city was not built for cars, there is not enough room for everyone to park outside their own front door and the only objection I have to the council parking fines is that they can't reinvest the money on public transport. The solution for local drivers is to drive up to Crouch End where parking is free and then walk, yes walk!, down the hill home.Rosesky - don't take this personally, I feel this way about all car owners.

vetski · October 2012

Parking isn't free in all of Crouch End; they have CPZs too, though with less restrictive hours than we have here as a result of our proximity to the station.

rosesky · October 2012

parking definietley isn't free in Crouch End. I totally empathise with you Miss Annie. I cycle wherever i possibly can. Unfortunately i feel i have been forced into owning a car because I have looked at every car hire scheme and so far they have all worked out more expensive than having a car, despite tha fact that I don't even my car much , but I need it for work as I exhibit at fairs regularly and have to take a car full of stuff with me, and also i use it to take me and my son camping in the summer, which is our only holiday. I do think blabla carhire is a great scheme, and am planning to try that for a while when my car finally conks out...and that probably won't be far off. I feel very strongly about green issues, and car use in general. Aside from that I have to say ..i find this is a very very edgy forum.......I have just came back from my befriending work with suicidal people and I have to say, it was a lot more chilled over there *@*<;br>

Brodiej · October 2012

I suspect we will receive a response from those not living in the CPZ's @MissAnnie. I reckon they will consider that the proposed "solution" to be a selfish act in itself. I think it is too, but is a solution to a council created problem with few suitable alternatives.<div> </div><div>I guess if you live in London and work outside it is completely unacceptable to own a car in order to secure your employment in the field you work in...which is my situation. Most people's points of view aren't that they shouldn't pay or shouldn't be fined, its about the dubious objectives of the scheme and how the monies are collected. </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

Brodiej · October 2012

@rosesky. With regards to your last point....totally agree, and you won't be surprised to hear that you're not the first person to make that observation. Too many unnecessary put downs and condescending responses on what are very mundane topics. Good manners and a sense of humour aren't really in abundance (any more)

rosesky · October 2012

well..there's a growing part of me that is quite bemused really. Communicating on here has felt a bit like being back at grammar school at times...... btw i meant whip car not blabla....whip car is an amazing car hire initiative... www.whipcar.com night night

yagamuffin · October 2012

What do people do with their cars?<div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">I grew up out in the sticks in Devon, being able to drive at 17 is a right of passage that enables you to go somewhere and return home without walking a mile to catch the hourly bus that stops running at 10pm or getting a taxi for £50.</div><div>I have lived in London for 12 years and never owned a car here. On the rare occurrence I need one, I simply hire. Sure, it would be nice to be able to just jump in the car and get out of London at the weekends but I manage.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">I just don't understand why so many people need cars in London.</div>

rosesky · October 2012

I agree. I would really love to give up my car but car hire needs to become a truly viable option costwise for people for people like me, who don't use their car every day, but do use it very regularly for work purposes. Also my cheap camping holiday would turn into a very expensive holiday if i had to hire a car for 3 weeks. Whipcar is definitely the best car hire scheme I have investigated . People with cars, rent their cars to people without cars....so everybody wins...brilliant..and as it goes through an umbrella org the insurance is all taken care off so no fights...brilliant. I am gonna try this one when my car dies.

Papa · October 2012

@Miss Annie, I am sorry but I totally disagree with you. (I normally agree with your sentiments expressed on here but this time I have to try and refute your argument) The modern London road system is designed, built and maintained for cars - its roots may lie in time before the motor car but those days are long gone. [As a cyclist I'd say it needs vast improvement for bikes and less focus on cars but that is another matter.] It is not a complete luxury to own a car, for some it is far closer to a necessity. It all depends on whether you live a carefree London-centric life, or have a family and need to travel regularly outside of the capital. In answer to yourself and Yagamuffin. We own a car because I have a two-year-old daughter and my wife works outside London, she needs the car to get to work, get my daughter to nursery and to my mum's, who we are lucky enough to have look after my daughter because otherwise my wife wouldn't be able to work due to the sky-high cost of childcare and then we couldn't afford to live etc. We also need a car for visiting family outside London, due to our inadequate and overpriced public transport system, and for carting around the various bulky items, trips to the tip, and all those other occasions that modern family life entails. You are entitled to your opinion but others are equally entitled to own a car and you make a number of assertions I would say are incorrect: <ul><li>Many people do come closer to needing a car than it being a luxury.</li></ul><ul><li>There is plenty of room for people to park near their houses, all of our streets have at least some empty spaces on them all the time, however, people should not live in London and expect to park right outside their door.</li></ul><ul><li>Crouch End does have CPZs. Also why because you don't like cars should you impose them on our neighbours over the hill?</li></ul><ul><li>The complaint is not 'I want to be able to park wherever and whenever I feel like it' but that the councils run a corrupt parking system, where they have an annual charge that has been raised to eye-watering levels for something that costs hardly anything to administer and that they easily make the cost back on with parking tickets.They then deliver the harshest and most punitive system they can to their very own residents.</li></ul>The other thing I'd add is that parked cars are one of the best anti-speeding measures around and don't cause pollution or accidents. It's only when they're not parked they cause a problem, arguably we should positively encourage them to be stationary.

JoeV · October 2012

I've never thought of owning a car as a luxury, but it is a choice regardless of whether or not a person considers it a necessity. I really don't get the fuss about parking permits. Can someone explain this to me? Is it because Councils now charge for something that was previously free and which people took for granted? In Haringey, the top charge for a yearly parking permit is £154.50 (at least that is what's listed on the council website) -- this is eye-watering? Car owner are storing private property in a public space and to me £12.88 per month doesn't seem like alot.

rosesky · October 2012

my posts no longer seem to appearing on here....not sure why ?

rosesky · October 2012

..must be my snail computer.... @joe<;br> I don't think anyone is complaining about the price of the permit itself. I am complaining because I did not receive a permit renewal reminder letter and was immediately slapped with a £60 fine the moment it expired.

rosesky · October 2012

I cant seem to access any earlier posts from this thread ...anyone know why ? I wanted to cut and paste a commment from Papa L for my appeal letter, which i am in process of writing

Arkady · October 2012

You may just be looking at page 2? Is there a number that you can click on just below my post?

rosesky · October 2012

thanks arkady - got it now well finally finished my epic novel "Appealing Parking in Finsbury Park" thanks for the feedback will let you know how i get on ;-)

Roy · October 2012

I really don't understand the responses to this thread, either. For heaven's sake, the Department of Transport manages to send out road tax reminders, and to operate a pragmatic appoach to people who are late renewing their tax whereby rather than prosecuting immediately, they write them a letter saying they have a certain number of days to pay otherwise they'll be subject to prosecution. [ETA: Also Cambridge, the only place where I've owned a car, always sent reminders for permit renewal - I'd have been lost without them.] It really does sound like the council here is just trying to use people who make a simple mistake as a revenue source. I'm not a great fan of motor cars either, but I understand that some people's circumstances dictate having one, even in London, and I think they have as much right to be treated fairly by the authorities as anyone else. Sadly, fairness from authorities is a rather dated concept (in all contexts). roy

rosesky · October 2012

That seems to me to be the sane approach too Roy. I doubt that anybody purposefully avoids paying for their permit.... certainly not me. Hopefully things are about to change as this was announced this week. <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/lfi/DNWA-8ZFCU3">http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/lfi/DNWA-8ZFCU3</a><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/lfi/DNWA-8ZFCU3"> </a> Government action to enshrine Town Hall transparency as an everyday activity will now also open up punitive parking charges to public scrutiny, Local Government Secretary Eric Pickles announced yesterday. "As part of that we will expose a great council cash cow cover-up unmasking punitive parking practices that hit residents in the pocket.

Papa · November 2012

@JoeV A car owner will have already paid out twice over for parking on the road, through road tax and council tax. The cost of permits has risen from a small admin-based charge to what is essentially an extra tax, without mandate. Islington's most expensive is £411 and it has more than doubled the cost of average permits in recent years.The <a href="http://www.islington.gov.uk/services/parking-roads/parking/parking_permits/Pages/resident_permit.aspx">system of charging by emissions</a> for all cars, even ones under existing ownership, is also deeply regressive. It rewards a high earner who can afford to buy a new BMW 3 Series with low emissions over a cleaner who has a ten-year-old Ford worth £750 too poor can't trade to newer car.It is greenwash that fails to acknowledge that manufacturing a new car is far more costly to the environment than running an older higher emissions vehicle and creates <a href="http://www.islingtontribune.com/news/2012/mar/£1000-car-costs-much-park-bmw">crazy situations like this for classic car owners</a>. I also seriously object to needlessly having parking restrictions to prevent visitors, tradesmen etc visiting from 8.30am to 6.30pm six days a week (plus any extra matchday ones on top) - you can stop commuters with a simple two-hour restriction in the middle of the day.Apologies for the parking rants, it's something that really gets my goat (which the council is currently pricing up for a permit).

rosesky · November 2012

i totally agree Papa L. Earlier this year many people around here were withour visitor permits for a few weeks when the council changed the permits. We all ran out of permits and were unable to get any. The council didn't respond at all to that. We just had to deal with it via machines. Every other week the rd outside my house has been dug up for months, as they try to find a leak they never find. Yellow parking notices come up and down overnight, and one of my neighbours is so frightened of being inadvertently hit by a fine, that she parks in another road now! It is the same with congestion. I unknowingly slipped into congestion zone when I got a bit lost once, and it was only when i get a £60 penalty that i realised i had been in there at all. NOBODY gets away with entering congestion zone, just as NOBODY gets away without renewing their resident parling permits. The councils know this and see it as a good opportunity to fleece us. As someone who NEVER parks anywhere where i might get fined, THIS MAKES MY BLOOD BOIL. It is immoral in my opinion, and as you say, it is those with the least money that get hit the hardest.We are not robots. We are fallibe human beings. God knows we have enough to remember.

kreuzkav · November 2012

The jumper over shirts versus tracksuit debate is mild compared to this. I've never owned a car and don't have a driving licence and I'm quite happy walking, cycling and taking public transport but I guess the need of it for work purposes (transporting goods etc) is the most convincing argument. Not too sure of the family one as I grew up in a city without a car and my parents coped quite well without one. <div> </div><div>I think the best thing car owners can say is 'look, I don't care, I want a car to go shopping, see my family and friends, what's the big deal, I don't want to have to share public transport with the plebs'. End of! (as some very lucid philosopher said to me on a bus one day when he planted his heavy bag on my knee and I complained.</div><div> </div><div>We're on the road to nowhere........</div>

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