Road closures in Corbyn St/ Thorpedale Rd - does everyone else know about this ...?

gardener-joe

...

AMC

Hello, Its important that you are aware of some important information that will help you cast an informed vote for the proposed traffic scheme. The following statistics were provided to me by Islington Council following a traffic survey in October 2012. See below daily figures showing number of vehicles passing through. Corbyn - 700 Evershot - 1000 Thorpedale - 850 Tollington Park - 5000 The survey also pointed out that Hanley was only running at around 35% capacity. In addition to this Seven Sisters was also not taking its fair share when compared to the volumes experienced on Tollington Park. Another survey was then undertaken in early 2013 which showed that the problem had worsened. For example 250 vehicles passed through Corbyn in the space of only 1 hour during peak mid week times. That's more than one vehicle every 15 seconds on streets that can't even accommodate 2 way traffic. I won't even go into the horrors experienced on Tollington Park but as I'm sure you can appreciate 5000 vehicles a day on a residential road with 2 schools an active church and a park entrance is not conducive to a safe environment. As more and more roads in Islington are closed or restricted so traffic through levels in Tollington will continue to rise. Remember that wealthier sectors such as Highbury, Barnsbury and Canonbury already benefit from robust traffic calming measures that create home zones providing a safe and healthier environment for residents. So why shouldn't Tollington also benefit from similar implementations? These ever increasing levels of traffic are simply no longer acceptable. Rat runners are speeding down our streets with no regard for our safety or respect for our environment. Our children are not safe to walk to school or ride their bikes locally. More recently and to the horror of a local father his pram was crushed by a motorist on Tollington Park (thankfully the child was sleeping on his shoulders at the time) simply because The driver was rushing to make the lights at the junction of Fonthill. These are situations that shouldn't even be given the opportunity to arise. Please be aware that the junctions of Hornsey & Thorpedale\ Corbyn are not closures as you surmise but are in fact point no entries from Hornsey. So everyone will be able to exit from those roads as normal. The calming measures on Tollington Park may very well create traffic jams initially but they form the basis for a wider scheme that takes into account the whole study area looking to gradually change the behaviour of through traffic which we will all benefit from as Finsbury Park goes through a massive regeneration over the next decade. Rat runners want to avoid traffic and these measures set out to do just that. Hornsey road will also benefit as drivers will choose to stick to Holloway which is designed to tackle high volumes. If the measures are introduced the council will constantly monitor the situation and make changes to refine the infrastructure, so its imperative we all think long term and not of the immediate implications. It is my personal opinion that to oppose these plans on the basis of inconvenience is highly anti social. I trust that we all want to live in a less polluted, safer and quieter environment, this is an investment we can ill afford to miss out on - please support it.

Mirandola

Thanks for sharing that AMC.

AMC

You are very welcome Mirandola

graeme

@AMC <br>Was it a resident from the area that crushed the pram?  (We're assuming he was 'cutting through' from some other area - is that the case?)    Just asking, since it is quite an emotive argument to use, but is somewhat light on helpful information.<br><br><br>

Brodiej

<P>I'd be more likely to accept this if it didn't sound like it had come straight out of some council pamphlet. </P> <P>As a local driver, i know the roads well and the advantages/disadvantages of taking the so called "rat runs". I don't use Corbyn. Thorpedale, Evershot and even less so Tollington Park. There is very little to gain. I'd say the only time i might use Corbyn would be to ensure that i was parking on the preferred side of Hanley Road when coming from Hornsey. That's it, maybe once a month. Otherwise, its main trunks all the time.</P> <P>@AMC. Please can you clarify the relevance of identifying "wealthier" areas of the borough as being something to consider. If this is an issue of safety, wealth has no influence. Also, what are the traffic numbers for Hanley Road, Hornsey road, Stroud Green Road, Severn Sisters.........without the context i think the numbers provided don't tell us anything.</P> <P>I also think that its rather bad form to suggest that someones opinion is anti-social just because it doesn't match your own. Read the views, these are from people who live on the streets that the changes affect. Don't ignore them.  </P> <P>Something tells me that no matter what the "feedback" is, this will go ahead backed up with the stats that were required to sell the story. Oh wait, that's what happens with absolutely everything. </P> <P> </P>

mikep

I'm not against the scheme, I just don't think it goes far enough.<div><br></div><div>Cities should be pleasant places for people, not convenient layouts for cars. If it takes a few minutes longer to navigate back home via car but makes the area more pleasant to live in by reducing traffic, so be it. And I say that as a car owner. <span style="font-size: 10pt;">I would love to know if they've done any predictive modelling of where the traffic will go after the rerouting, because there are some big assumptions about what's going to happen.</span><div><br></div><div>Tollington Park is a real concern. Road narrowing is a dangerous approach for vulnerable road users, primarily cyclists, as it encourages drivers to force past from frustration, squeezing them into the sides of the road. Well either that, or ends up in them copping a load of aggro for (correctly) taking a defensive position in the centre of the lane that converts them into a mobile speed hump. Not good design at all.</div></div>

mikep

Richard Watts, the Tollington Ward councillor, has said that he will set up a face to face meeting to discuss the proposed changes with the offices involved..<div><br></div><div>He's on holiday at the moment, but when I know more I'll update the forum.</div>

therattle

I live in Corbyn Street and simply don't believe that there are ever 250 cars per hour passing along it. That strikes me as utter bullshit, or an incredibly selective statistic showing perhaps the peak recorded traffic on a single occasion. Likewise 700 a day seems hard to swallow - maybe for a 24-hour period. Corbyn St is so quiet that people use it regularly for driving lessons. Preventing access from Hornsey Road would just make residents of Corbyn and Thorpedale drive further to get home (yay for the environment?) and use Hanley and Tollington more - surely the reverse of what is desired. It's an ill-thought-through suggestion. I avoid Tollington when possible as it's a pain in the arse. <br><br>As for preventing cases like the pram crushing, the only way of doing that is by stopping all motor traffic. I don't know how the measures proposed would have prevented somebody from speeding to get a traffic light, so its relevance as an example of why these measures should be enacted is not particularly good. <br>

Popsicle

I have to agree with the negative sentiment towards this council proposal. I am a resident of Corbyn Street and have never experienced 250 cars an hour passing along it. Preventing access from Hornsey Road will force all Express Cabs minicabs to drive down Corbyn or Thorpedale roads when returning back to base. Not a situation that the residents of the two streets might welcome.<div><br></div><div>As for TPW, it's narrow enough already and presents plenty of issues for all users of the road, both two and four wheeled. Narrowing it and placing one-way obstructions will not solve the perceived problems. </div><div><br></div><div>I agree with the sentiment of an earlier poster who said that unloading of supermarket articulated lorries at the Hornsey/TPW junction is the main cause of frustration for drivers that pushes them into finding short cuts. This should have been thought about when planning consent was granted for yet another mini-market. </div><div><br></div><div>The issue of speeding will not be solved by poorly thought out "traffic calming" measures. These types of measures only make all road users more frustrated and more likely to conduct themselves irresponsibly. Speeding needs to be controlled by better enforcement. I don't think I've ever seen the camera on Hornsey Road flash despite most vehicles pass it at over 20 mph.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

ADGS

I imagine the council are counting 250 cars based on one car that was driving along the road with a box containing 249 Matchbox toy cars on the back seat. 

ChangN4N6

Nice one! Chang

conformable_kate

Yes - I'm similarly astonished by the figures for cars passing down Corbyn St. I have lived here for years, I work from home a lot, I find the numbers completely unrecognisable. I might do my own count.<div><br></div><div>And of course pollution and congestion are genuine and serious problems. But if I have to go round three sides of a square to get back to my house from Hornsey Rd (including traffic lights) I'm not reducing pollution; I'm increasing it by running the engine for longer. I don't get the logic of this. I'm also increasing congestion on Hanley and Tollington in my efforts to find alternative ways home.</div><div><br></div><div>Tollington Park traffic is a headache, I agree, and I don't have a solution to this, but I would look with sympathy on whatever residents may approve. But Corbyn St and Thorpedale Rd really aren't blighted by traffic, and I'm at a loss to understand why we have a set of proposals that residents largely aren't in favour of (to judge by responses on this forum as well as neighbours I've spoken to).</div><div><br></div><div>And as several of us have repeatedly said higher up this thread - a council that was serious about problems of congestion and air quality in Hornsey Rd wouldn't be letting Tesco clog it up with lorries at the Tollington junction. Change that before messing about with bits of the area that work OK.</div>

yagamuffin

Two things.<div><br></div><div>It would be nice to see them working with Haringey on this. The majority of the traffic on UTP/TP is coming from Green Lanes looking to avoid as much of Seven Sisters as possible. If it remains easy for vehicles to get from Green Lanes to SGR I don't see that this little bit of impediment on TP is going to make much difference.<div><br></div><div>What we really need is for TFL to work with the GPS companies to make sure that when using their devices drivers are directed to use the major routes as much as possible,</div></div><div><br></div><div>And a combination of the two, if UTP/TP were downgraded to effectively be side roads then GPS devices would be less likely to send people down them.</div>

Mirandola

There are basically two ways of counting traffic: pressure sensors or someone with a clicker. Anyone know which one was used.

Popsicle

There were pressure strips across Corbyn st some months ago...

Mirandola

Interesting. They're a lot more accurate than clickers.

Beek

They *should* be more accurate.  However, there were strips monitoring the traffic on Hanley Road in March this year.  I noticed one of the strips was detached from the fixing, and was lying parallel with the kerb rather than across the width of the road.  Therefore I presume it was not accurately recording the traffic flow.<div><br></div><div>I phoned both the number on the box and Islington Council a couple of times, to no avail, they just left it in that state.</div>

harpistic

Maybe they got the pressure strips mixed up, or as @Beek said, they just didn't work? I walk down both those streets on my way to the Factory, and I've almost never seen any traffic on either road.

Papa

Firstly, based on the daily evidence of my own two eyes on counting cars are on both Corbyn and Thorpedale in rush hour I do not believe those statistics, however, they could be right and we may just underestimate how many cars travel along a road.<div><br></div><div>Unfortunately,<span style="font-size: 10pt;"> they carry no relevance whatsoever without reference to how many cars a residential road should expect to carry in an hour - hence our potential for underestimating of how many cars travel along a road.</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;">They also fail to show how many of those cars belong to residents of Thorpedale and Corbyn, which are pretty car heavy and the point remains: why should the residents of Hanley, Tollington, Evershot, Almington and Marriott have to suffer their vehicles due to a self-serving scheme?</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div>AMC, you say critics are anti-social, is it not anti-social for the scheme you support to refuse to share the burden and instead force more traffic onto your neighbours? </div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div>It would seem very clear from all the comments on here that Corbyn and Thorpedale are not rat runs. The council should not be using those emotive terms and swaying a consultation that has been put forward with no evidence.</div><div><br></div><div>There should be very clear evidence put forward showing how many cars are travelling along the roads, how many travel along similar roads in the area and a proper modelling of the effect that displacement will deliver on surrounding roads and the extra congestion on Tollington Park.</div><div><br></div><div>There is also a conveniently missing number of cars figure for Hanley Road in that post.</div><div><br></div><div>If those roads were rat runs there would be a lot of support on here for the scheme - this is not the Top Gear forum, it's not a very car friendly place.</div><div><br></div><div>As it is the response speaks volumes about this crazy scheme.</div><div><br></div><div> </div>

harpistic

It seems illogical that the residents have not been consulted as a matter of priority in this case, as the residents will know best about traffic levels, for example if the traffic sounds wake them in the morning or if they have difficulties crossing the road or if there are times when it is not safe for kids to play in the street. We are not hearing those arguments, and perhaps that is why residents are not being consulted as it would put an end to this scheme? As Papa L has pointed out above, there is no accurate measurement of the usage of the Hornsey Road junctions, and who is using them.

Mirandola

Um, isn't this thread about the consultation?

conformable_kate

Well, part of my initial complaint was that I heard about it only accidentally, through a neighbour who had had leaflets - I hadn't. Hence the title of the thread; I think that the consultation has been a bit slapdash, though I wouldn't necessarily assume it was conspiracy.

Papa

the point I am arguing Mirandola is that the whole consultation is flawed and needs to be halted. It needs to be done with proper evidence and data not unsubstantiated emotive claims of rat runs. Ideally with some proper better thought out proposals not ones that look like a primary school project.

yagamuffin

Surely all they need to do is ask the residents of each street if they are happy with current traffic levels or if they think there is too much through traffic that needs to be stopped or re-routed. If the residents are happy then the council need do nothing.<div>I would like to assume that this all stems from local residents complaints hitting a tipping point that forced the consultation. Sadly though I imagine it's just jobsworths at the council creating work for themselves.</div>

harpistic

... and wasting a lot of much-needed money. That was my point from yesterday - if they had started with talking to the residents, they could have saved a lot of money, but if a consultation is launched, then a lot of money is being spent unnecessarily before the residents are involved. <br>

Mirandola

Um, the consultation sort of is talking to residents. How else should they do it? Send people round door to door? Organise events? All that is a lot more expensive.

miss annie

They are asking all residents to complete the survey, isn't that asking residents to get involved?

kittygal

Exactly, I fed back all my experiences of noise keeping me awake in the survey, as a resident of an affected road.

Popsicle

This <u>is</u> about the consultation, but it's also a useful forum for the exchange of ideas on how to reply as well, so it's not surprising if it meanders off the original topic after a few posts. Lett's face it, we are still talking about the proposal and the consultation method. <div><br></div><div>I travel up and down Hornsey road every day on my cycle to work and back. One of the observations that I made on my travels is that the junctions of Hornsey and Seven Sisters and Hornsey and Hanley are not very well designed. A lot of cars travelling north along Honsey road want to turn left onto either Seven Sisters or Hanley, but are prevented by cars travelling southbound in the opposite direction. This inability to turn across the oncoming traffic entices drivers into turning down TPW where there is a right turn filter lane and traffic lights. </div><div><br></div><div>What might help is by extending the period of green light for northbound cars (whilst southbound are on red) and giving drivers a green light and a green right arrow to show that they can safely turn right onto Seven Sisters and Hanley.</div><div><br></div><div>I presume that is what the council is trying to do by these proposed traffic measures?</div><div><br></div><div>This system works very well for southbound traffic on Hornsey turning onto Tollington Road, south of the Hornsey/Seven Sisters junction.</div><div><br></div><div>Pops</div><div><br></div><div>PS - I have answered the online consultation. I received two leaflets, one from the council and one from a local resident which was rather similar to the post from AMC above.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>