Road closures in Corbyn St/ Thorpedale Rd - does everyone else know about this ...?

Papa

Continued.<br> <p class="MsoPlainText"><i>Apologies for not responding sooner.<span style="mso-tab-count:1">          </span></i></p> <p class="MsoPlainText"><i>I can now confirm the following. There has been extensive data analysis carried out on all the roads within the Tollington park area. The A5 letter went through a comprehensive internal consultation before being delivered to the residents of the area.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">  </span>We do not believe that the wording is emotive and that certainly was not the intention.<span style="mso-tab-count:1">            </span></i></p> <p class="MsoPlainText"><i>The consultation is now on the Islington website.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">  </span>This was not done previously as we only wanted to consult with local residents and not every person in Islington.</i></p> <p class="MsoPlainText"><i>I would ask that you allow the consultation process to run its course and then we will be in a position to know whether the scheme will be implemented or not as whilst you do not support the proposals, some of our residents do. </i></p> <p class="MsoPlainText"><i>We will only proceed with the scheme if residents are in support of it and there are safety grounds to be considered.<span style="">    <br> </span></i></p> <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="">As you can see this has still not addressed any of the points. No evidence or data has been forthcoming and no comparison point for similar roads. There is a denial that an invitation to a consultation that contains no evidence but cites roads as rat runs is leading or emotive. Meanwhile, the response to the argument that the consultation and proposals are flawed boils down to fingers-in-ears 'we're not listening' we'll make a decision based on the consultation.</span></p> <p class="MsoPlainText">Ultimately, whoever, it is on Thorpedale and Corbyn who fancies having their already quiet roads made even quieter at the expense of everyone else and without any proper evidence put forward, seems to be having their considerations put above all other residents.<br> <span style=""></span></p> <p class="MsoPlainText">What a shambles. I am embarrassed to have voted for these people.<br> <span style=""></span></p> <i><br> </i><br>

Brodiej

<P>I think most people can rationalise decisions (even maybe that they don't agree with) when presented with facts. </P> <P>I think the key thing for me on this proposal is that there are no statistics/benchmarks to improve on. Eg: "By introducing these measures we estimate that an existing (unacceptable) RTA rate of X will be reduced by X, and therefore we ask that you support the proposal"</P> <P>There is an enormous assumption that traffic flows are largely attributable to external traffic (non-resident), when in actual fact the counts may represent traffic movements of local residents. It's pretty much impossible to determine, yet forms the basis of the project. Although we think the counts are inaccurate, these may be normal traffic flows but the way they are presented suggests there is a problem. Statistically, i bet the M1 is one of the safest roads in the country but carries maybe 250,000 cars a day</P> <P>The proposal could be said to be about improving road safety, but what safety statistics are they looking to bring down? There is nothing to benchmark against to say whether things may improve or get worse. There is again, an assumption that reducing traffic flows decreases the risk of accident. True, but then where do you draw the line about where you decide to apply safety measures and where the role of the car takes precedence. A resident on Hornsey Road and Corbyn Street should be treated the same surely? They have the right to the same level of road safety. In that sense, i would suggest that there are bigger safety issues to address on Hornsey Road caused by the implementation of the Tescos and the subsequent traffic problems. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

ChangN4N6

This is a good point about Tescos - they seem to get away with everything? And Sainsburys with its non local an robot staff (not jus the check out mschines ) is strangling the area IMHO. Cath West is known to be a good sport. She is a kiwi and stuck her neck out for cricket in the park and dogdirt bins which is good. She is prob forced to defend the bum boys in the traffic dept and there farting plans. Chang

ADGS

And based on their previous 'consultations', 'if residents are in support of it' = 'two or more residents said yes (regardless of how many said no)'.

jward

<P>A bigger question is what would we like £90k to be spend on anyway, assuming it is available?  When elected, our councillors agreed with the idea of a re-consultation on the hours of operation of CPZ J.  It has the longest hours in the borough, longer than zones around the Holloway road and Upper Street.  It’s about time that this sledgehammer to crack a nut was corrected.</P> <P>This traffic calming project is intended to improve the traffic situation on Tollington Park in particular.  There are a couple of contributory factors to this, which have been caused by poor implementation of previous schemes.</P> <P>Firstly, the introduction of the controlled parking zone took away all parking on either side of the road near the junction with Fonthill road.  This makes drivers feel like they should continue straight on from Stroud Green Road because the road is wide and clear.  Reintroduction of parking places on either side would add passive traffic calming at this entry point.</P> <P>The second point is that the 7.5 tonne lorry ban is very badly signed.  Either signs are missing or located so that it is too late for HGV drivers to change their minds about driving down Tollington Park.  The signage should be corrected and the use of a full narrowing as on Tollington Way would provide a physical obstruction to overweight vehicles.  And isn’t Tollington Park the road for a speed camera? (and also note the give way priority is in a location where traffic speeds are relatively slow anyway, nearer Chris the King would be better).</P> <P>The proposals themselves have a number of problems:</P> <P>- The no entries on Corbyn Road and Thorpdale will severely impact on the businesses on Hornsey Road.  If they were moved to just past Bracey St. the three roads would provide the useful facility of allowing parking off the Hornsey road for users of the businesses and shops, including the cab office who surely would suffer from this plan.  The addition of a few ‘20 minutes free’ parking bays would also support Hornsey Road shops.</P> <P>- The no entries on Corbyn Road and Thorpdale will presumably increase traffic on Hanley Rd and Almington, plus Tollington Park and Marriott Rd. , as the 2 alternative routes.<BR>- The new no right turn from Tollington Park into Evershot road will simply shift traffic onto Marriott road as drivers want to cross to Hanley Rd.</P> <P>So, the proposal seems to only go halfway to calming the area.  Partial measures will presumably always reduce traffic on some roads and increase on others – the council analysis should demonstrate this change.<BR>An improvement to the plan would be to block Thorpdale Rd between Marriott and Montem Roads , cutting off the through route to Hanley, but this would then push traffic back onto Evershot and Corbyn.  The trick would be to create a meandering route that only residents would know and bother to use, but that would be no use as a ‘rat run’ (wouldn’t ‘through route’ be a less emotive term?).</P> <P>A more comprehensive traffic calming scheme would involve the creation of 3 ‘crescents’ each accessed from the surrounding roads as follows:<BR>1. A Marriott, Thorpdale north and Evershot east loop only accessed from Tollington Park,.<BR>2. An Evershot west, Corbyn north and Almington West loop only accessed from Hanley road.<BR>3. A Corbyn south, Almington (middle and east) and Thorpdale south loop only accessed from Hornsey road, and including Montem.<BR>(sorry, no time to draw this out – which would make it easier to follow)</P> <P>This would mean residential traffic only on our roads, and some ‘driving round the houses to get away/home’ but shouldn’t we be using our cars less anyway?  It does raise questions as to where the displaced traffic will then go.  Tollington Park would pick up more traffic, hence the need for further narrowing etc. here.  The rest of the traffic would then use Hornsey road, Hanley and Stroud Green Roads, which is presumably acceptable to residents of these streets – have they been consulted on any of these changes?  Presumably the council have traffic models to confirm the impact of any such a change.</P> <P>Given the great expense of road narrowing with tarmac and kerbs etc, I’d like to suggest on street bike stores (such as the Bikehangar by Cyclehoop) located opposite each other to create a narrowing.  This uses the money to improve facilities for cyclists at the same time as calming the street.  Another alternative to expensive highways works is on-street planters (with appropriate refelctors etc.).</P> <P>Please can we have a public meeting to discuss?  There are a number of venues that could be available free of charge, but if not I could arrange space at St Mark’s school, (the only downside is that its slightly out of the area being discussed, across Hornsey road).<BR></P>

yagamuffin

How about we remove all 'traffic calming'. no right-turns and anything else put in place to make the traffic situation better and then allow traffic to find it's natural path.

andy

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Remember, consultation on this survey finishes on the 20th. Please do register your opinion:</font><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;"><br></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Tollingtonpark</font></div>;

bexhj

I voted 'no' and asked for some more info. which I've cut & paste below. Interestingly, they've said the plan is in response to requests/complaints from residents. Judging by previous posts on this thread, different reasons have been given to different people... They also provided no info. in response my request for the details of the benefits they expect these plans to provide to the area as a whole: "[...]The rationale behind the consultation was that we were contacted by residents from the Tollington and Thorpedale areas, who were concerned about traffic in the area. The Traffic & Parking Team were already looking at developing a scheme for the area, particularly in relation to reducing traffic in the Tollington area. Proposals were then set out and  sent to local councillors for comments before being sent out to local residents. The funding for any of the works that we hope to carry out will largely come from TFL. We are now in the process of analysing the results and comments which will take a week or two. Once this has been done we will probably meet with the  local councillors for the area and decide what to do next. [...] Senior Engineer Traffic and Parking Environment and Regeneration Islington Council" I'll be signing the petition shortly. Hope the info. is helpful. BTW I'm on Evershot end of Thorpedale.

yagamuffin

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">"</font><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font face="lucida grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, tahoma, sans-serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: 20.796875px;">reducing traffic in the Tollington area" without it seems any thought to where that traffic is going to go. I do wish these elected officials and there highly paid lackeys would think about things more...</span></font></span>

Papa

I am disgusted by the behaviour of the council and councillors.<br><br>I spent more than six weeks asking for some evidence that these roads were overused.<br><br>I also asked Catherine West, Richard Watts and Jean Kaseki for help obtaining it, pointing out that this seemed entirely unnecessary on quiet roads Corbyn and Thorpedale, ill-planned and would blight residents on neighbouring roads.<br><br>The council has refused to reveal its statistics on how busy Thorpedale or Corbyn are, the methodology and crucially any comparison to similar roads - indicating how busy they should be.<br><br>In fact, it basically said it didn't think people needed evidence for a consultation.<br><br>Catherine West was the only councillor to bother to reply, repeatedly taking a long time to do so.<br><br>By the time the consultation closed I still had no meaningful answers to my questions.<br><br>Bravo Islington, you have really excelled this time!<br>

dion

I am glad I don't live in Islington anymore - the parking horror and things like this were very annoying.  Haringey is more confused, slower on the uptake and therefore more relaxed.

miss annie

I love Islington, but I don't have a car. I do have my rubbish and recycling collected every week though, even on Bank Holidays.

tp277

Any idea when the results of this consultation will be out guys?

ChangN4N6

Friday week Chang

Papa

Rubbish and recycling is one thing Islington does very well indeed, whereas it hasn't quite got the hand of local democracy, repairing roads and pavements, or not wasting money on half-baked traffic schemes.<br>

ADGS

Islington also has the best libraries in London, or at least the best of the six services I use.

checkski

I sometimes use N4 and Archway, but much prefer Hornsey.

ADGS

North, on Manor Gardens, is by far the nicest of the nearby Islington branches.

Mirandola

North Library is very pleasant.

miss annie

North is lovely, especially when the doors to the garden are open.

tp277

Hi all - I'm looking for someone to comment on this for a news story I'm writing for Islington Now. Preferably someone who feels that the council's language is 'emotive'. If you would be willing to be named for a quote, simply contact me: tomeppayne@gmail.com or call 07896532005<div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Tom </div><div>Reporter, Islington Now</div>

andy

Just had an email from the Council (as someone who responded to the consultation)<div><br></div><div><div>Dear Resident,</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you for taking the time to complete the Tollington Park Traffic Study Consultation. We </div><div>carried out this consultation because a number of local residents asked the council to look at </div><div>what could be done to reduce traffic in the area.</div><div><br></div><div>We have always been very clear that we would abide by the consultation results and only carry </div><div>out changes that had widespread support.</div><div><br></div><div>As you may be aware the consultation closed on the 20th September 2013, and the results of </div><div>the consultation and recommendations are;</div><div><br></div><div>Location  <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><span style="font-size: 10pt;">No. of responses to consultation<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>In favour<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Against </span></div><div><br></div><div>Thorpedale <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>111<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>46 (41%)<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>65 (59%)</div><div>and Corbyn </div><div>Street </div><div><br></div><div>Tollington Park <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>51 <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>38 (74%) <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>13 (26%)</div><div><br></div><div>Remainder of </div><div>the area<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><span style="font-size: 10pt;">52 <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>15(29%) <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>37 (71%)</span></div></div><div><br></div><div><div>The consultation responses are very clear, so our recommendations are:</div></div><div><br></div><div><div>1) Implement the proposals on Tollington Park. The safety proposals for Tollington Park will </div><div>assist in safety along this road which also has schools in the area and is supported by </div><div>local residents along this road. </div><div><br></div><div>2) There is no majority support for the proposals of the no right turn into Evershot road and </div><div>the point ‘No Entry’ restrictions for Corbyn Street and Thorpedale Road, therefore we will </div><div>not proceed with these elements of the scheme.</div><div><br></div><div>The measures along Tollington Park will be implemented this financial year, before March 2014. </div><div>Residents affected by this will be notified prior to works commencing on site </div><div><br></div><div>Environment and Regeneration </div><div>Public Realm</div><div>Municipal Offices</div><div>PO Box 3333</div><div>4th floor, Turbine wing</div><div>222 Upper Street</div><div>London, N1 1XR</div></div>

Papa

So that is half a victory for common sense?<br>

Brodiej

Im happy with the outcome, but i find it quite disconcerting that had there not been much discussion on here this would have just happened. Even with all the questions about data and objectives, off the back of 51 responses, the Tollington side of the project has been recommended. In terms of percentage response of residents along that street, i doubt its even 10%. I wonder what's/who's next for the traffic team?<div><br></div><div>In other news, thanks very much Islington Council for finally resurfacing Hanley Road. My house won't shake when a bus goes past and it looks very nice too. Thank you, its appreciated.</div>

conformable_kate

good news, but again mysteriously the council has left me off their mailout, even though I responded to the questionnaire! Trying not to take it personally ...<div><br></div><div>And yes: very low response rate. Which may be partly due to defective leafletting/ news distribution at the beginning of the process. </div>

tp277

Further to my message earlier today - and now that the results of the consultation have been announced - would anyone like to comment on the results for a news story I'm writing for Islington Now? Just e-mail tomeppayne@gmail.com. Thanks  

conformable_kate

PS I take it back about the council leaving me out of their mailings, I'd just been looking at the wrong email account! 

andy

@Papa L - a good description<div>@BrodieJ - it was stroudgreen.org wot won it?</div>

AMC

<span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Thank you to those residents who voted in favour of the "Point No" entry on Thorpedale and Corbyn. Sadly a victory for the motor vehicle has prevailed. Those residents who voted against have unwittingly ensured that traffic levels on our small residential roads will increase accordingly. </span><br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Whilst works are carried out on Tollington Park our roads will be used as diversion routes for months and when the works are finally completed motorists will shift to our roads in search of alternative routes in order to avoid queues on Tollington Park caused by the implementation of the traffic calming measures.</span><br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">However what is most shocking is that those residents that voted against have put the motor vehicle before themselves, the health of their families and the good of the area, very depressing indeed...</span><br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">

NorthNineteen

@AMC ; And if there are problems, which will be picked up by traffic counts and resident complaints it won't be difficult to implement some no-entry signs.<br><br>The works will take weeks at most, not months.<br>