Changes

Sutent

If liar was the offence then it seems a bit harsh to me, but we all have different thresholds.

miss annie

I think I get it. The one rule is 'be excellent to each other'. Seems like an eminently sensible approach to me. I don't think the rule is in place to protect people or to stop others from hurting their feelings. It is there so that we can enjoy the benefits of a chat, debate or argument without getting distracted in petty personal disputes. I have met many brilliant people as a result of talking to them on this forum, I would be sad to see it disappear because a minority lack the self discipline or commensense to interact with others in an adult manner. A block or mute function, as previously discussed would be ideal but would skew the threads in a weird way.

NorthNineteen

Moderation is such a difficult thing to get balanced - without any moderation I fear negativity on here could spread and put more people.  Too heavy handed and it takes away the fun.  Basically you're never going to please everyone.<br><br>I've noticed the tone has gone down on here and less people posting (which rather worryingly co-incided with me posting more I think....) so I feel something has to change and I'd be interested to see what happens over the next few months.  It'd be great if the community grew and there was less negativity.<br><br>Personally, in this case I feel being banned for a couple of weeks is a bit harsh.  It was stated the slate had been wiped clean (I think) so I would have thought either deleting/editing the post or sending KK a message would have been more approapriate as light touch modding?<br><br>I was more offended by being called a Lib-dem than a liar.<br>

Arkady

When I get polls working there will be one on whether people want a block function.

Arkady

<span style="font-style: normal;">@NorthNineteen - that's </span><i>fewer</i> people, not less.  You're banned for 12 years.

Marquis

@Arkady: Ad hominEm, not -Um :-) Sorry, had to be. Banned!

Arkady

Hahaha! Would you like to take over after I ban myself?

[Deleted User]

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dion

Maybe we all understand why people should be banned/blocked in certain circumstances, even if there is clearly a range of what people think is or isn't acceptable. <div><br></div><div>However, in this instance, i.e. the first for a while, is there a possible case for clemency?  A sort of getting out of jail early for good behaviour.  Pour encourager les autres?... maybe that lesson has been learned.</div><div><br></div><div>We could then all get on with whatever we were boring each other with in the first place!</div>

[Deleted User]

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gardener-joe

Now officially boring. I'm with JoeV and Arkady ... and wfould advise just get on with running it how best suits you.

Arkady

The reasoning behind the length of Kreuzkav's sentence are as I originally set out, and won't change.  He knows the deal.  Going forward I am open to hearing people's general views on what sort of behaviour should be considered unacceptable, and when suspensions are appropriate (and for how long) and when there should be an outright ban.<div>In some universities now they start the first lesson with just such a social contract-building session.  'What happens if somebody's phone goes off during the lesson?' 'What sanctions should apply if that happens?' this helps build consensus around a set of norms.</div><div><br><div>My rule of thumb, though, is that it should be very similar to what would happen if were all sat in a room together, as civilised adults.  If someone is rude or personal then they might be asked to leave, and they might not be invited back for some time.  People who use pejorative language about people of a different gender, sexuality, ethnicity etc. risk being permanently ostracised.</div><div><br></div><div>Thus calling someone a liar to their face, on the basis of zero evidence, would be responded to badly.  It's almost hard to imagine people behaving like that in person, isn't it?  See also making an issue of someone's personality rather than their argument or behaviour. If we applied that here - if we imagined that the target of our post was sat in front of us - then we wouldn't have a problem.  And thus yes, the very need for this exchange is a tad frustrating and boring.</div></div>

[Deleted User]

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NorthNineteen

Can we maybe move on? You've made it very clear how you feel.

Mirandola

I'm the voice of reason like Alex Ferguson is the voice of Liverpool fans, but in theory a time-out for crossing the line can be reasonable. 90% of the time Kreuzkav's posts are great. Interesting, smart, a bit different. He's genuinely one of my favorite posters. 10% of the time... well, you know the rhyme about the little girl with the curl in the middle of her forehead? So I'm torn. Not sure I'd have temporarily banned him, but can see where Arkady's coming from. I do think Arkady's got a tricky challenge ahead of him. As a Lib Dem activist he's been quite campaign-y and vocal in saying that other parties are wrong. That was fine, but now he's running this (unless he wants to turn it into a lib dem talking shop, which he clearly doesn't) he'll have to find a way of making Labour, Greens & Tories feel welcome too.

Mirandola

The mumsnet system whereby posts get cancelled if there's a personal attack, people get suspended if things get ugly and swearing is positively encouraged seems to work ok - and people get a lot angrier over there than they ever do here.

[Deleted User]

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miss annie

That's unfair. It's important to separate Arkady's political life from his personal life on this forum. Perhaps you could suggest some ideas on how the forum should be moderated to make it a more positive and sociable place? Let's get some perspective, the person has not been banned, as Mirandola put it he has been given 'a time out' to let him know that rudeness is not good. As we know from a couple of years of experience (or more) things tend to escalate from there. K knows the boundaries, he has been temporarily banned before, and had posts deleted. Arkady is doing exactly what Andy did, just in a more transparent way.

conformable_kate

Following up on the Mumsnet example, I like the idea of simply deleting posts that get personally offensive. It cools down the tone, and it also means if they promptly vanish there isn't much incentive to make them.<div><br></div><div>Like many I'm uneasy about suspension/ banishment. As others have said, the balance is tricky here. However sound the intention behind it, I do wonder whether Kreuzkav will ever come back. Banishing people may just reinforce a sense of exclusion, and lead to a walkout; and while on one level of course that's a personal issue/ choice (<span style="font-size: 10pt;">I can hear a number of people immediately saying just that), I think it would be a pity if individual voices - even cranky ones - find this isn't a place they can feel accepted. </span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I do get that the immediate cause here was calling someone a liar, rather than politics. But it's unfortunate that the context was political disagreement. This is a bit of a running sore, and one of the topics on which posts degenerate into abuse/ rant most quickly; as Mirandola says, it's a challenge Arkady will need to find a route through (as well as course as the rest of us).</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I also think that in terms of the public face of the forum it's a bit of an ironic outcome. This long and rapidly expanding argument, exposing a whole series of faultlines in communication on the forum, isn't what the new regime would have wished for as the first major debate. There is probably a moral there about unintended effects.</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;">And a PS on Mumsnet: my sister-in-law was a moderator on that site for years. Mumsnet users seem to launch into each other with zeal and glee and very little restraint. Managing the conversations was exhausting; shifts went on through evenings and weekends; she was constantly having to jump up in the middle of meals to try and contain some sudden flare-up. The stress of being held personally responsible when something got out of hand was huge. I'm sure she'll be happy to hear the moderation has a good reputation, though she (to her great relief) no longer works there! But it's a reminder not to personalise the process too much; moderation involves people making decisions about boundaries, and that's always going to be contentious, and will sometimes involve mistakes. Arkady's choices may not be ones everyone agrees with (and it's clear that there's a good deal of uneasiness about this one in particular); it's a long step from there to deciding that he's on a power trip. </span></div>

NorthNineteen

Is it a coincidence that Andy, Chang and KK have all vanished at the same time. Has anyone seem them in the same place at the same time....? /conspiracy

conformable_kate

they were avatars for those who have reappeared!

Perflexed

<p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 15.0px Helvetica; color: #252525">Possibly unhelpful & definitely clichéd, but…</p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 15.0px Helvetica; color: #252525; min-height: 18.0px"><br></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 15.0px Helvetica; color: #252525">First they came for Chang, and I did not speak out—<br> Because I was not an absolute idiot.</p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 15.0px Helvetica; color: #252525">Then they came for KK, and I did not speak out—<br> Because I was not an occasional XXXXXXXXXXX.</p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 15.0px Helvetica; color: #252525">Then they came for XXXXXXX, and I did not speak out—<br> Because I was not  a little bit XXXXXXXXX.</p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 15.0px Helvetica; color: #252525">Then they came for me—and there was ... <b>REDACTED.</b></p>

[Deleted User]

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miss annie

There are a couple of deleted posts that are about me, not just from Kreuzkav. I can post those back up if you like. Don't really see who it would benefit though as the posters are still active members of this forum. I don't think Arkady has ever written a post he's felt the need to go back and delete or edit because he was ashamed of it. When Arkady was posting as a prospective LibDem councillor he was posting under his real name. As a normal member of this forum he posts as Arkady. It's fairly easy to separate the two worlds. Of course he'll bang on about politics (as do lots of members), LibDemmery and tall buildings in the course of discussion, in the same way that you will go on about cats, KK will mention Berlin, Stella will rave about bikes and I will bore on about shoes or shops or cake (yep, I'm a cliche) because they are dear to my heart.

Sutent

Lots of people bring their personal shit and anger from the real world and take it out on another members in posts. Many times I have had a shit day and have been tempted to write something not very pleasant. I stop myself and come back a while later and realise what an idiot I am doing. Conversely in the real world we are surrounded by people who want to mug us, murder us, dump their personal shit on us etc. Some know they are crossing boundaries others don't because no one has told them. We are a tolerant intelligent society and should only result to the stick as last result. I am more in favour of Reinforcement of forum acceptable behaviour by other means. Delete posts and communication I am in favour of more.

[Deleted User]

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miss annie

The 'last word' discussion was neither harassment or bullying. It was the kind of to and fro open banter that you defend to the death in other discussions. You are missing, or choosing to ignore, the fact that the said person has been temporarily banned before. It has just been made public this time so that we are reminded of the Golden Rule.

[Deleted User]

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miss annie

If things are done quietly behind the scenes it's 'a shadowy elite', if the same thing is done publicly it's 'spite'. There's no way to please people is there.

[Deleted User]

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