Development of John Jones Site / Sketch House

Churros · September 2010

As I understand it the planning application was turned down primarily because there was not enough social housing and 475 units of student accommodation was considered to be excessive.

Personally I think it is something of a triumph for local democracy that the officer's report that recommended the application was turned down by councillors who were concerned that the area needs more affordable housing for people who will staying in the area, rather than for a succession of students who are based at universities in central London and who do not have a connection to the area.

Islington has been swamped with similar student accommodation (charging up to £279 per WEEK for a room) in recent years and I'm far from convinced that another 500 units would be a good thing. I'm sure the developers could remodel the offer to get a better balance and still make it work financially.

Kate Jones · September 2010

Thanks Churros, had we been told that over a year ago by our Planning Officer we wouldn't have pursued the scheme!

Where did you get the info from re the reasons for the scheme being turned down? We were only told about trees and massing, nothing about affordable housing or number of units, so I'm interested to know your source.

Kate Jones · September 2010

We've had the official refusal through now and the reasons given are:

- Removal of trees/ their health
- Scale and Massing

Not quite sure what we're going to do yet, we're considering all options. Ultimately it seems we were ill advised re not speaking to councillors in the lead up to the committe meeting - being picture framers we didn't know any different, but our advisors should have...

We're meeting with MP Jeremy Corbyn and one of the committee members this week to get ttheir thoughts on where we went wrong and hopefully get some constructive advice on how to move forward.

In the meantime, if anyone is looking for light industrial units to rent, let us know - we have two buildings to rent out at standard commercial rates, could be good for storage.

Arkady · September 2010

Hi Kate Do you know who the new owner of the neighbouring Stroud Green Road development is? We’ve noted that it has got underway again, and if they could be persuaded to say hi here and keep us informed it would generate a lot of goodwill.

Eliz · September 2010

Kate, this article in the [Islington Gazette](http://www.islingtongazette.co.uk/content/islington/gazette/news/story.aspx?brand=ISLGOnline&category=news&tBrand=northlondon24&tCategory=newsislg&itemid=WeED15 Sep 2010 12:30:32:533) goes into a lot of detail about why the plans were rejected and specifically mentions the amount of student housing proposed in your plan.

Arkady · September 2010

The article repeats the 'twice as high' misunderstanding and doesn't point out the hypocrisy of turning this down and granting permission to the massive development virtually next door.

sincers · September 2010

It sounds like your advisors have really let you down. It looks from what the article suggests that much of the councils thinking on limiting student accommodation was public domain by the time of the meeting. The argument about the amount of storeys falls down because of the other development that's just been passed, but I'm baffled why the planing office are incapable of working with developers to arrive at acceptable schemes rather than making you go through all the pain, especially on priority areas such as this. Particularly as you're the standing tenant. Imagine the potential tax receipts they'll get from the site - its ludicrous.

Arkady · September 2010

Kate, one thing you might contemplate doing (and I’m not naïve about the expense) is putting together a scale model of the site and the surrounding buildings (including future buildings) to demonstrate the scale and massing. I rather think that if people can see it in the context of the hill, the smaller floor size, and the climbing scale from the 3-story buildings on Lennox Rd to your development and thence to the new 20+ story City North development it would ease a lot of fears. You could even talk to City North about permission to include a mock-up development on the Morris Place site that they also own, with a scale somewhere between your proposed development and the City North high-rise. This is a tactic often deployed by developers to help alleviate fears. A cheaper option would be to do it as a digital model.

ActionVerb · September 2010

Those are pretty weak reasons for refusal, given that the trees do not have Preservation Orders on them (as far as I can tell) and the scale and massing of the site is completely in context given the development being built next door and the 21 x 2 storey FP redevelopment. I'd say there are decent chances at appeal, although you'll have to re-justify the whole scheme, rather than just the two reasons for refusal, and it seems the Council are rather against new student housing so may not overly helpful with agreeing the other principles of the scheme before its considered by the Inspector. It does seem a bit strange that you were advised not to contact the Councillors. We wouldn't think of going into a committee for a scheme of this scale without having a clear idea who the members are and what their issues are likely to be, and we'd then spend time making sure they're targeted with the positives messages of the scheme. (Apologies if this all sounds 20-20 hindsight visiony...). If you need a second opinion on anything planning wise - please whisper - we work for some of the largest retailers & developers in the Country and would be happy to have a look. Although I'll remove this if it's considered inappropriate! With regard to affordable housing, the City North application was approved with very low level of affordable housing as well - so if nothing else, the Council need to be consistent.

JoeV · September 2010

Kate, I’m sorry. Generally I like the plan in regard to how it looks and wish the council gave you a more honest reason for it’s rejection, their decision is nonsense given the City North approval, but to be honest I’m not convinced 475 student flats is in character or would benefit the area.

I’m confused. Why is everyone for this development? Because it looks nice as you pass by on the way into the tube? Is no one concerned about the impact student housing on this scale would have to the area? Or that 475 flats, rooms really, would be built for absolutely no benefit to anyone in the neighbourhood, unless that are a well off student?

Everyone is reacting like this is John Jones, little shop on the corner wanting to build a bigger workshop and art gallery getting a bum deal.

This is John Jones Plc. It’s a £30 million pound development, not a loft conversion it deserves scrutiny and frankly, I think there’s a bit of naivety here. The election changed the composition of the council. Could this have impacted their decision? If I were spending £30 mil I would have made it my business to know.

Frank Godrey Family Butcher, another great local business is directly affected by this development and declined to participate in it. Does anyone wonder why?

Arkady · September 2010

Students are transitory, but so are many (maybe most) commuters in flat shares. The difference is that the students will often be around in the day, spending money in the pubs, cafes and shops that otherwise would not be spent here. That was the view of the proprietors of the World’s End, and I know this comment has been made in other contexts – Stroud green is dead in the day compared to many comparable high streets. Other than being transitory, what do you have against students? They are people just like everyone else, and would interact with the local population just like you or me. It was disappointing to see that John Jones and Godfrey’s didn’t co-ordinate the re-development plans, but presumably they both had their reasons. I do wonder what they are, but I’d be surprised if their first thought was ‘students will contribute nothing to the area’. Given the positive factors listed above, what negative impact would students have on the area?

andy · September 2010

In property terms, £30m isn't a big development. John Jones is a local business, of the kind that has otherwise migrated out to the M25. It could act as the anchor tenant to a whole set of local craft based and cultural business that could diversify the economy away from the public sector/chicken cottage one we have at the moment. Not saying it's a flawless plan, but if we aren't encouraging this sort of locally-led, mixed-use development, then what on earth would we prefer?

JoeV · September 2010

@Andy, I agree with you that John Jones is a business worth keeping in the area but where does the plan allow for other local craft-based and cultural businesses – where would they be situated? I’d be for that plan. As it stands now the proposal appears to entail a larger workshop for John Jones, possibly a gallery and a 475-unit rooming house for students.

I’d prefer a mixed-use complex with more workspaces and residential units available on the open market, to anyone. To me that would have a more positive impact on the area.

I only wanted to spark a debate and highlight what I see as a possible double-standard when it comes to development in general. There seemed to be more critical comments about City North (mine included) not to mention the Stapleton Hall Road site than there were about the John Jones site but in my opinion the John Jones will impact more people in Stroud Green than the others.

@Arkady: Are the factors you list positive? Are they true? You seem to take for granted that maybe they aren’t. Will students be around in the day spending money?

When I was a student during the day I was either in class or asleep. Plus what money? Will they have any left after paying rent in what will certainly be very expensive accommodation (never mind their tuition fees).

Also, to what high streets are you comparing SGR to? I’ve been here during the day and it’s as lively as any in a mostly residential neighbourhood like ours.

I didn’t say students would not contribute anything or necessarily have a negative impact. My point was this development caters to a very narrow market. If anything it could make the neighbourhood less diverse especially given other student housing complexes are or were planned for nearby.

Wasn’t another, a rather large student housing project approved for the corner of Seven Sisters and Isledon Road? (across from the Finsbury Park Astoria/church). Does anyone know what happened to that plan?

andy · September 2010

![](http://static.worldarchitecturenews.com/project/uploaded_files/11794_rainbow1main.JPG) Isledon Road <http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/index.php?fuseaction=wanappln.projectview&upload_id=11794>;

Arkady · September 2010

The project that andy kindly linked to has planning permission. I don't know whether they are still seeking funding or whether they have to wait for the hotel to serve notice before it's demolished, or some other reason. The John Jones plan includes a mix of commercial space (theirs), student housing and affordable housing. The housing will host people who will, of course, spend money on food and entertainment. A reasonable percentage of this can be expected to be spent here, and given that they're aiming at arts students I'd expect them to be doing a lot iof laofing about in the day! It may be that some shopkeepers would be opposed to that, but I think it unlikely. I only have my own observations and those of others in other threads on which to base the statement that SGR is quieter than, say, the Broadway or Holloway Rd in the day. I would also like to see more commercial units on the ground floor. I also guessed that this would bring them in more money. Maybe Kate can fill us in on that. Bottom line, I don't think that any of the above objections were worth delaying the redevelopment indefinitely, especially as it risks losing JJ. Change of use can always be applied for later. B

miss annie · September 2010

Having been an arts student I can confirm that quite a lot of loafing about 'waiting for inspiration to strike' does go on. Much of this time was spent in cafes and pubs. So I expect that local businesses would benefit from this potential influx of students.

It would be splendid if the idea of a cultural quarter comes to fruition with John Jones and the new theatre attracting other creative businesses to the area. More commercial units might attract the kind of businesses that currently rent in the Business Design Centre.

Ali · September 2010

I guess the Council is concerned about the number of student only accommodation across the borough because they consume councils services ie cost when they don’t contribute on the revenue side because they don’t pay council tax etc or have I got that bit wrong ?

Mirandola · September 2010

Only about 1/4 of local government funding comes from council tax.

Kate Jones · October 2010

Some interesting discussions and points, thanks. Just a quick note - @JoeV, we're John Jones Ltd, not Plc and its not a £30m development for us. We'll end up with a really great new building which will enable us to do all sorts of things - a conservation studio, better staff facilities, a gallery etc - but this deal really doesn't make us wealthy on a personal level. It will take the pressure of the business somewhat, but please don't assume this is a big development thats going to make us all millionaires because it really isn't. Its just not a big enough site to generate life changing funds!

I'd also like to put the record straight re the £3m Damien Hirst contract that Islington Gazette keeps quoting. Its absolute rubbish! We do work with Damien Hirst, but the biggest contract we've worked with him on was less than 1% of this figure. Again, I wish it were true!

JoeV · October 2010

And according reports this week, it looks like the Isledon Road student housing project is on courtesy of US venture capital firm, The Carlyle Group: <http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2ccab56a-c9a2-11df-b3d6-00144feab49a.html>; <http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE68Q1H020100927>; <http://www.djdeloitte.co.uk/?doc=37351>; @Kate: I didn’t think the plan was intended to make John Jones the company or anyone connected with the company rich so I’m sorry if what I wrote made it seem that way. I only mentioned the £30 million cost to make a point about it being a significant, serious investment. To be clear, I consider the plan to be a way to fund expansion of your facilities – which I say is a worthy goal in itself. What I question (object is too strong a word) is the way the development is being promoted i.e., that it’s intended as a way of creating an arts hub, which sounds very attractive and who can object to that? But don’t most successful ‘arty’ type neighborhoods grow organically – one artist and one organisation at a time? Where are the artists working to make this hub artistic supposed to live? Not in the complex itself obviously, artists are not the target market. Maybe I’m expecting too much but it’s my feeling that what is being promised is not what will be delivered and I think that the word ‘art’ is being used as a marketing gimmick to make this development seem kinder and gentler than your average corporate housing complex. Can I ask, aside from expanded facilities for John Jones, a gallery, retail space and student flats are there actually any specific, viable ideas on the table for other arts uses? Also, who will management the complex? Will John Jones have any say in how the retail spaces are rented? Specifically, I’m thinking could deals be available to give independent shops/businesses a chance to open over chains. If that could be done, it would be invaluable in transforming the site. Believe it or not, I don’t object to the plans as designed. I think it looks great and would be an asset to the area and I’m glad it would provide John Jones a chance to expand. My preference though would be for residential flats and retail. Either way I hope you’ll be able to submit a revised plan that will win approval.

Arkady · October 2010

Thanks for the update on Isledon Rd Joe. You've raised some worthy questions here too, impressively objective. A

markpack · October 2010

I think the suggestion made about a scale model of the proposals is a good one (and I say that as someone who originally thought the plans were far too big until I followed the debate in some detail - which I guess not everyone does).

Ali · October 2010

I was catching up with the Apprentice the other night. I am pretty certain that at I spotted at least one of the Teams making their sausages at Godfrey’s place near to JJs

Arkady · October 2010

Yes it was Godfrey's.

Kate Jones · October 2010

@JoeV I don't really understand your comments - John Jones have been working with artists of all levels at this site over the past 24 years. In the past two years alone we’ve had over 12 exhibitions, 4 artists in residence and provided free workshops for over 600 artists. We are certainly not bandying the word ‘art’ around in a gimmicky marketing type way…! We could just stick to being a picture framer, but we're driven by a passion for creativity and the various art projects that we initiate are not-for-profit. That alone should indicate that we're proactive and innovative - with a new building, gallery space and 400 art students as neighbours, as well as the Park Theatre, you're going to see some amazing things taking place... I think we're pretty unique in the support that we give to artists and it frustrates me that we get criticised for what we want to do.

If anyone would like to write a letter in support of the plans that we have, it would be much appreciated. We have now lodged a planning appeal and would love to capture all the great comments and support thats been made on this blog - the best thing would be to have a whole bunch of individual letters of support. I hope that will be possible.

And yes Arkady was right, it was Godfreys! Funny as they filmed Junior Apprentice at John Jones, then the grown up Apprentice at Godfreys a week later.

Ali · October 2010

Well it is an up and coming Arts quarter !

Arkady · October 2010

Kate, I have been writing the letter in my head for weeks. I need to remove some of the bile and furious anger before it can be transcribed. But it will be dispatched soon, I promise.

Ali · October 2010

Is there a deadline for submission?

Arkady · October 2010

Kate, was the application revised or can you not do that if you appeal?

ActionVerb · October 2010

No material changes in the appeal. is there an appeal reference number and an address of the planning inspector?

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Top Posters

Development of John Jones Site / Sketch House

Comments