Road closures in Corbyn St/ Thorpedale Rd - does everyone else know about this ...?

Papa · August 2013

I contacted all the local councillors to raise concerns about the consultation being fatally flawed. I got a fairly stock reply from Catherine West that ignored every point I had made and essentially said 'there is a consultation'. I replied to reiterate concerns raised here and have now given a week for a response yet have had nothing, not even an acknowledgement of my email. Clearly our elected representatives hold us in great esteem.

ADGS · August 2013

Further evidence that Islington council contains a fair few Brecht fans who would like to dissolve the electorate and choose another.

Arkady · August 2013

Catherine West is soon to stop being Islington's problem and add to Haringey's instead. As if things aren't bad enough.

mikep · August 2013

They could have easily dropped leaflets to notify a public meeting to explain the proposals, taken on feedback, then consulted on the final scheme without adding much to the costs. And by doing so actually engage the community in the plans, rather than commenting on the output of the process.<div><br></div><div>I was annoyed with part of the response I got from the council, which had a cheap shot about "in these cash-strapped times, we invite people to propose how we can consult" or words to that effect.</div><div><br></div><div>Simple. The budget for the scheme should include sufficient allowance for consultation within the overall total. It's not hard, is it?</div><div><br></div><div>The last thing anyone wants is situation like Drayton Park, when they put in a scheme different to the agreed plan, modified it substantially because it didn't work, then gave up and ripped the whole thing out. With planning and implementation like that, it's little wonder they are short of cash.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

Mirandola · August 2013

Ok. Suppose they'd decided to organise a public meeting. Where? Has to be somewhere disabled accessible, cheap, easy to find. What about parents with young children - are you organising a creche? When? Weekend doesn't work for people going away, weekday doesn't work for anyone with 9-5 job. Any single day and someone will be ill/on holiday/working away. So should there be more than one event? Who? You'll need to staff it, and provide food if people are working there all day. You could hire people on minimum wage, but you'll be asking them to be clear, polite, patient, accurate ... It'll cost way way more than a written consultation. That doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do, just that the Council aren't being entirely stupid/evil.

mikep · August 2013

Again, not hard. They could do exactly what they do with planning meetings. Islington Town Hall main chamber, in the evening. It's open, accessible for all (disabled access), easy to reach via public transport. Babies are welcome, based on my attendance.<div><br>It's set up with everything you need to hold this kind of event. And, it's free. The main chamber has proper AV equipment, presentation screens and can be chaired so it doesn't descend into chaos.</div><div><br></div><div>No you can't cover everyone, but if you give notice people can talk to their friends to make sure their opinion is conveyed. It's exactly what we've done in the past on other issues. This is already there, it's just not being used.</div><div><br></div>

Mirandola · August 2013

Hmmm. You're assuming that everyone, or at least a fair cross-section are able to make it there on a specific evening. Plus, using the main chamber isn't free - staffing costs and opportunity cost.

graeme · August 2013

@Mirandola And what's wrong with assuming that only a cross-section could attend? It's happened before (I'm thinking Parkland Walk stuff a few years ago. Different council, but same idea). <br><br>Should we all just not engage with our public servants in person, because some folk need to get a babysitter? And just because there's a cost to using the chamber is not a hurdle to proper democracy. Let's hope no one suggests having our vote revoked because 'it's too expensive to run polling stations'. <br>

Mirandola · August 2013

Representative cross-section would be great. Danger is that's exactly what you don't get. Look, I'm not saying that written-only consultations are always the right approach, just that they have a role.

Brodiej · August 2013

........but the traffic ideas are still crap though right? I'll happily tell them via digital, print, hand written, face to face or pigeon.

Popsicle · August 2013

Erm... large format braille pigeon if possible<div><br></div>

Mirandola · August 2013

How about a pigeon pecking out in Morse code?

harpistic · August 2013

Or a pigeon doing semaphore?

ChangN4N6 · August 2013

They could do a evening session in the school theatre (kids could stay in the play areas) or st multiuser church downstairs hall. They could have a exhibition in the school foyer or at park theatre. Lots of ways to do it. Chang

miss annie · August 2013

Pigeons would be rubbish at Morse. You'd need a Woodpecker for that. If they were to do an evening consultation, that would surely suit most people. Daytime stuff is rubbish for most working people, who usually cause or are most affected by traffic issues.

checkski · August 2013

@ChangN4N6 'st multiuser church' - Brilliant. Sheer genius. chetski.

yagamuffin · August 2013

It does seem fairly simple on the face of. The only way the council should even think about doing anything like this is if a significant number of residents complain to them about the traffic. Then the first thing they should be doing is calling a public meeting for all the residents and affected parties to attend. Only after that meeting if there is a ground-swell of opinion should they start thinking about drawing up plans and having consultations.

therattle · August 2013

I think a woodpecker's Morse might be too fast for most people to transcribe accurately. <br><br>I would really like to see where they got these stats; I still think that the 250 cars/hour (1 every 15 seconds?!) along Corbyn Street is either a complete fabrication, or an outlier reflecting an isolated incident. A more nuanced indicator, like the median number of cars between 6am-9pm, and then at peak times like 4-7pm, would be far more useful - but I imagine we wouldn't get that as it wouldn't support the argument as well. <br>

coling · August 2013

I noticed the comment about counting cars. I think these numbers are probably correct but not from rat runs, but instead from mini cabs. At any point there can be 6 or more parked on Corbyn Street, not using it as a rat run but waiting while they are in the office on Hornsey Rd. They then turn around and leave when they get called. The counter near Hornsey Rd/ Bracey St would pick up this traffic. I do not think this plan will change that pattern, only make them enter the area further down, probably causing more traffic from Almington to Hornsey Rd.

ChangN4N6 · August 2013

Yes, this is the answer. The plan is based on faulty data and no one wants it. It is a big waste of money. Chang

coling · August 2013

Don't get me wrong, I am all for calming the mini cab traffic doing uturns and picking up passengers all night on residential streets, but this proposal won't solve that issue. Proper control of noise from businesses might be a solution, not creating longer journeys due to traffic restrictions.

andy · August 2013

This is a link to a PDF of the Tollington Ward Area Improvement plan: http://bit.ly/14Ucnn7 If I read it right, there is c.£90,000 allocated to this project (last item: "Thorpedale Road area road safety improvements") I think the point about dodgy data is a good one. The traffic stats feel totally wrong to me. @AMC - thanks for the post, and welcome to the site. I'm interested how you came by that data, since I was unable to get anything so constructive out of the Council when I emailed them.

ChangN4N6 · August 2013

Interesting. I wish this list had been better publicised - see £100k for Eversleigh open space and £15k to market the 'heritage' of Hornsey road. Don't quite understand the priority system and if all these projects were approved . Chang

miss annie · August 2013

Crouch Hall Court: Forty five thousand pounds to clear a little bit of land and make ten beds for planting? Bloody hell! Contractors must be making a fortune. We've just done this for the community allotments on Hanley Rd. and it might just have tipped the scales at 5k.

Papa · August 2013

It occurred to me this morning that we may even be treating the council too fairly here, there is a reason why Islington may want to shove this through.<div><br></div><div>Money.</div><div><br></div><div>It gives three extra spots to sit a little CCTV car at the end of and could potentially be used to justify buying another one.</div><div><br></div><div>A nice little earner?</div>

ThorpedaleSam · August 2013

There are some very sensible points raised here. I'm right at the end of Thorpedale, by Hornsey Rd. I've been here 19 years and I simply do not recognise the traffic problem that the council is suggesting. I do not accept these streets are a rat run and I cannot see how, short of sealing us off completely, Islington can hope to make any impact.<br><br>I don't want the end of my street to become a dead-end as it can bring many negative factors, not least loitering and littering. And ironically, if I can't access my house from Hornsey rd, I will then become the involved in the traffic on Corbyn, Bracey and Thorpedale, that I am not currently part of- so this scheme will in effect increase traffic at certain spots.<br><br>What is interesting to me is the perception of traffic. Given I live at the entrance to one of these roads, I assure you all it is remarkably quiet traffic-wise here, a fact often noted by visitors to the house. So if the issue isn't actually volume of traffic, and I can only assume those at mid-terrace properties are clearly feeling some negative effects from cars, then perhaps it's the speed of the cars? No amount of road closures will help in that. <br><br>I'm not selfish enough to say that as and end-of-terrace resident, the feelings and needs of mid-terrace residents isn't important to me but I honestly think most of the traffic on these roads is generated by houses on the roads themselves, and no amount of council bollards will remedy that. In fact this measure threatens to increase mid-terrace traffic as those of us living at the ends seek a way out of the area.<br><br>I hope that the council abandons this scheme as it seems costly and wholly unwarranted, and not even dealing with a real issue. Let's better use this money on something we actually need, and can get real value from.<br><br><br><br><br>

Papa · August 2013

ThorpedaleSam, interesting to hear your thoughts.<br><br>I'd encourage anyone who contributes or reads this thread and thinks this roads idea is daft to fill in the consultation, as that seems the best hope of halting it.<br><br>So far Councillors West, Watts and Kazeki have still not bothered to reply to the emails I previously referenced and acknowledge any of the points of criticism that suggest this consultation needs urgently rejigging. It's now 12 days, two emails and counting. Bravo.<br><br>This morning's 8.10am middle of the rush hour count. No cars on entire stretch of Corbyn, two on Thorpedale - one of which was parking there.<br><br>These are some rat runs.<br><br><br>

markpack · August 2013

I don't live on any of the streets in question, but as a regular pedestrian in the area I'm surprised at what the data seems to say about traffic levels on Thorpedale and Corbyn. The roads are nearly always pretty easy to cross in my experience, anywhere along their length. Big gaps making it easy to cross doesn't really equate to high traffic levels.

mikep · August 2013

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">I've just had a response from Liz Wathen, </font><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Traffic & Safety Manager, </span><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Environment and Regeneration, </span><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Islington Council.</span><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;"><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">"</span><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2">At this stage in the Tollington Traffic Scheme consultation, I see no merit in arranging a public meeting, as we have asked for residents views on the proposals and this is on-going until the 20th September. If residents are not in support of the overall scheme or elements of it, then it is highly unlikely that the scheme will progress in its current format.</font></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2">I am on leave after this week, but If you want to e-mail me your concerns, then I will endeavour to respond back to you as soon as I am back from leave on the 4th September.</font></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2">After the consultation closes and we have a better idea of the consultation results, then we will be better placed to meet if the scheme or elements of it are to be implemented. I want to assure you that we do listen to residents views and take concerns raised seriously, after all you are the people who know the area better than anyone else."</font></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2">Comments to </font><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); color: rgb(85, 85, 85); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; white-space: nowrap;">Elizabeth.Wathen@islington.gov.uk</span></div><div><br></div>

Papa · August 2013

I emailed Councillors West, Watts and Kazeki two weeks ago, raising concerns about the following<br><br>The consultation being prejudiced by emotive language in the notification which referred to rat runs<br>No data or evidence being provided to show the roads are overly busy - after all the general comment is that they appear to be quiet roads <br>The negative impact on surrounding roads<br>The actual proposal being fundamentally flawed<br><br>Catherine West replied copying in Liz Wathen essentially simply saying there is a consultation and ignoring all the points.<br><br>I then replied saying the points needed addressing and heard nothing from any of them.<br><br>Finally, Catherine West replied again yesterday. Two weeks after my initial email. This is what she said:<br><br><br>

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Road closures in Corbyn St/ Thorpedale Rd - does everyone else know about this ...?

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