Shoreditchification

miss annie

I saw this article on twitter and, as it's something we've discussed and I've ranted about, I thought others might find it interesting. Pretty much hits the nail on the head. And Croydon is not London! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/10561607/Why-this-Shoreditchification-of-London-must-stop.html

ChangN4N6

Stunning. Chang

Stella

I think I've just fallen in love a little.<br>

kreuzkav

He's generally right, but I think he's a bit too generous towards Camden.  It has kept a certain degree of cool, but it's also been extremely commodified over the last decade or so.  Proud Gallery has become a lot more corporate over the last five years.  <div><br></div><div>Shoreditch was being vilified long before the current use of hipster occurred. There was a buzz about the place around the mid 90s.  I remember going to the Blue Note and people knew the area was on the up.  By the early 2000s the free newspaper 'Shoreditch twat' was available, ironically in club 333. Nathan Barley was shown on TV nearly ten years ago.</div><div><br></div><div>I think what's happened is a hyper-form of capitalism and it isn't just the fault of young people.  Although, I would say that often there is a lack of rebellion against capitalism among the young and more of an embrace of products and consummerism without criticism.  And I do know a few 'hipsters' in their late 20s.  However, who are the people who live in Notting Hill....older people.  But I think it's the duty of younger people to question and kick against consumerism and maybe challenge things a bit.<br><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>

NorthNineteen

Interesting but it's a shame he took what could have been an interesting article and just turned it into a bunch of cliches.<br><br>And if Croydon isn't in London where do you think it is?<br>

Papa

I read that and thought about posting it too, but didn't get round to it.<br><br>It is quite funny, <br><br>But then I was also thinking about this the other day, when I ended up with two bottles of ale from two different East London micro-breweries. <br><br>My first thought was stupid hipsters. I can picture just what these bearded, angle haircut, rolled up trousered brewers look like, but then I thought hang on a minute, this is damn good beer and these are small independents taking on a very big business. Does it matter whether all this brings chills of a hipster stereotype or should we be applauding all the start-ups who are at least trying to slightly reshape modern-day capitalism, even if they are doing it with refurbed bikes, coffee shops and craft ales?<br><br>I think most hipsters are daft sheep as much as the next sensible person, but in a world dominated by chain High Streets and homogenous tat, at least a small chunk of people who fit the East London hipster bill are delivering something different to the norm.<br><br>Nathan Barley is the finest of satires on the other worthless side of all this.<br>

Sutent

I used to be dragged to Dalston market as a kid and I used to love it there. Full of action and people shouting from there stalls. My mum  once bought a live fish from Dalston market and I had to transport it home in a black bag with water and fish inside. The fish was half my height and I was 8 years old. It wriggled all the way home on the 149 bus. I put it in the bath but it was so long it could not turn in the bath. I was ordered to kill it and given a knife but after it wriggled it moustache at me i couldn't do it. The fat women from down the road with her belly hanging out from her saree managed to cut the head off in one swoop. It didn't taste too bad. <div><br></div><div>The saddest thing about hipsters and rich people taking over the area, is that the original Londerers have been displaced to the outskirts. Lots of these hipsters when they grow up move back to the shires to have kids as they don't want their kids to grow up in london. It results in a temporary population who have seem to have less value for the area than those for who it is a long term home. </div>

NorthNineteen

"Lots of these hipsters when they grow up move back to the shires to have kids as they don't want their kids to grow up in london." the evidence suggests this isn't happening interestingly enough, certainly not with those in their 30s/40s at present. This may be something to do with the fact they are already property owners but one of the reason for the huge increases in property prices is that people aren't moving out or moving up (i..e to bigger properties) in anything like the numbers that we expected or forecast.  This is why London is now forecast to have a population of over 11 million by 2050.<br>

Sutent

@N19 - thats is very interesting. My evidence is only from personal experience which obviously inst reliable. Is this the case for couples having children N19?

vetski

@NorthNineteen, Croydon is in Surrey.<div><br></div><div>@Sutent, your fishy tale is brilliant!</div>

miss annie

@NorthNineteen, Although it is a London borough it is not really recognised by Londoners as London. Romford and Sidcup are in London boroughs too and you wouldn't (well I wouldn't), say that they are in London either. I think of it like New York in that there is state and city. London postcodes Ns, Es, Ws & Ss are city, CRs and RMs etc are outer area. When you write a Croydon address you write Croydon, Surrey CR..., Romford is Essex RM.. etc.

miss annie

People aren't moving up and out because, as we heard from several members of this forum, no one who has to scrape together enough money to buy somewhere to live can afford to have children! So they stay put in their extortionate zone 2 flat.

Toddlesocks

<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Sadly there has been a HUGE influx onto the waterways in the last few yrs since  Grant Snapps  in all his wisdom suggested life afloat was a good housing alternative ( later admitted not  fully appreciating what he was talking about). May be cheaper to buy a boat than bricks and mortar but the upkeep needs deep pockets , living aboard certainly isn't for everyone, as many are finding after being quick to buy!</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"> It really has changed the boating community in and around London, before there was a really strong sense of community between boaters, one of the things that drew many of us to the lifestyle. There is a big difference between those that genuinely love the life float, and those mistakenly  seeing it as a cheap alternative,  and causing friction. </font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">A lot of these people are buying boats that are wrecks with paper thin hulls thinking they just need some TLC  to have a nice cheap floating pad in Hackney ,Islington ,  Camden , then they are learning how difficult it is to fit a boat out especially when trying to live aboard, and that these are actually dangerous areas to moor in, long stretches unsafe to moor.</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">  Now coming up with the idea towpaths should have street lights,  and CCTV , yelling about lack of facilities, effectively trying to turn the waterways into floating streets Madness!</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">It has  me in despair, though as i am  a maker, may benefit at times business ways from their custom. Good in bad in everything  finding a balance .</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Don't know what  solutions  may be,  appears  trying to educate some of these people better to appreciate what detrimental effects  they can/are  having ,  Seems they often miss something as basic as realizing  strong communities takes work and consideration from ALL to be successful. </font></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;"><font face="Arial" size="2"><br></font></div><div style="font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;"><br></div>

Sutent

@tooddlesocks I pass Camden lock every day and see the wonderful array of boats there. I have always wondered what it would be like to live in a boat. In the evenings I love the wonderful smells coming from the boat be it gas or food. I do worry about safety as the canal is pretty dark. <div><br></div><div>So it looks as though N4 is on the road to gentrification. If prices and rents go up higher will it become a ghost town full of hipsters and bankers?</div>

NorthNineteen

Guess it's an age thing with Croydon.  I've lived in London through-out my 20s and would definitely class it in London, Surrey is leafy and more rural.  I have several friends from Croydon and environs and they would also definitely class themselves as London and not Surrey. I guess it will be older people who would refer to it as Surrey and are probably the same type of people who put Middlesex on letters to address in NW London even though that serves no purpose whatsoever.<br>

miss annie

I put Middlesex on because I like it, although you are right. Parts of London are leafy and rural too, Croydon is notand nothing on earth would induce me to live there. However, as you have pointed out I am an old fogey! I know people who would have Watford as London, because the tube goes there which would make sense. As a native east Londoner I have doubts about anything outside zone 3, and most of south of the river. We must agree to differ.

NorthNineteen

We can agree on the fact of no good reason to live in Croydon, I was there for a meeting a few weeks and it was a dump and I swear it is still deteriorating.<br><br>As for this idea of Shoreditchification, I feel it's important not to confuse two different trends.<br><br>1. re-disovery of much of Inner and Central London, the gentrification of many areas close to central London. The same trend at Shoreditch occured in Islington, Notting Hill, Clapham etc.  The type of people that moved into these areas was largely characteristised by the type of people already around<br><br>2. growth of the creative arts and then the tech sector: these were largley new employment sectors so of course needed to move to new areas, much as the first purpose built factories in London looked along key radial roads for their needs of space/transport, creative employment wnated studio space, something cheap but also character.  Shoreditch was perfect.<br><br>So while the creatives have now moved on, and this is why people often think of as the next shoreditch as where these type of people are moving to, the change at Shoreditch was very different.  Shoreditches location almost in Central London has meant that it has become an extension of many typcial central London activities, this has massively been boosted by the Overground but now Shoreditch is increasinly similar to the West End.<br><br>London is expanding so it's centre needs to expand to.  And this isn't just occuring at Shoreditch.  20 years ago could you have imagined London's tallest office building being at London Bridge, or Google locating at Kings Cross, even major shopping centres at Shep Bush/Stratford. So Shoreditch has taken over from Soho/Mayfair as the place to open new clubs and bars, and increasinly restaurants too.  It has been absorbed into the psyche of central London and as a result is now getting increasinly numbers of people from the shires (AKA Bridge/Tunnel crowd) and also foreign tourists.<br><br>I feel that the Dalston's/Peckham's/Forest Gate's of this world will become more popular over-time and increasingly mainstream, while hipsters will be looking for the next new place for however long their continues to be the hype culture we live in.  But, frankly this is my point, what is occuring is a theme, a fad and I'm not sure how much legs it has got on it.  I think there is an increasing realism that being individual is not a very individual thing to do know.<br><br>I've rambled.... I'm fascintated by all of this I should add and one of my current projects at work is trying to understand what London will look like in 2050!<br>

Sutent

I love forest gate and all the roads off green street. With cross rail coming in theat part of east side of london from Stratford to Romford will hopefully get some investment.

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Toddlesocks

@ sutent, There is  lot of info and blogs online about living board.<div><br></div><div> We love life float, just  health that has us back at the flat just now .Mr T and i both wanted to move to the countryside but family commitments stopped us. As we had always liked the idea of living on a boat it seemed a good compromise, had our boats 7 yrs now . When Mr T is  a bit better will be back aboard full time, again.  We would hate to ever give up life on water, just so relaxing and wonderful being to close to nature. Guess we are fortunate enough to be able to do both, it takes every penny we earn to maintain them  but worth it.<div><br></div><div>@ NorthNineteen  Your 'rambling' was  interesting, would be fascinating to hear what you predict London to be like in 2050 at some point. </div><div> </div></div>

kreuzkav

@ Sutent.  Know someone who lives on a wide-beam boat on the canal and it's like a one bed apartment.  He has a shower, washing machine, nice kitchen.  His bedroom is at one end and his living room is at another.  He has to pump out his toilet from week to week but the plus is he can go up canal or river.  <div><br></div><div>@ North Nineteen.  I think you are bang on about Shoreditch being an extension of the West End.  And linking this with the tech industry location around Old Street and it makes better sense.  As I said earlier, I think while the Hipster and Shoreditch are linked, the vilification of a certain character pre-dated this e.g. Shoreditch Twat and Nathan Barley.  I only became aware of the word Hipster five years ago.  And London in 2050 will be quite a decentralised place.  I think hipdom and even tech industry will move to outer zones like Walthamstow, Brockley, Croydon.  I just hope our in between-ness in Stroud Green will save us a bit and the character of the place will stay the same.  Things change but this pocket of London shouldn't.  It's heaven.</div><div><br></div><div>@ Papa L.  Good point.  A lot of hipsters do run independent business.  Pop up places might be the new Camden market.  </div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

Stella

I know two people who live on a boat in Springfield and a family who has just moved to Devon as life on a boat was a bit too crammed with three people on it. I think they had a narrow boat, which is definitely a bit small for a family of three. Life on a boat has always been my dream, as is living in a warehouse/factory conversion. The girl who has the boat moored at Springfield needs to go to the community shower, and she, too, has to pump her loo. It's ice cold in the winter, if the boat's not insulated, but it's what you expect. One day I'll be living on a boat--even if it's perhaps only during the summer and the winter being spent in my house. :-)<br><br>I think lots of modernisation had to do with the Olympics. Hipsters go where it's nice-looking, making it look like they've contributed to it. Fakers, the lot of them. <br>

JoeV

My dream is to live in a flat that has a bathroom with a window, even if it's in Shoreditch (but sorry, not Croydon)

miss annie

I had a friend who lived in a boat at Eagle Wharf. He was boatsitting for a Buddhist nun so the boat was quite minimalist inside. The boat a few pitches along was gorgeous and huge, she'd done it all up like a very modern flat, must have cost a fortune but you could certainly live there full time. We went to an open day at St Katherine's Dock in the Autumn and the Director of Docks told us that it costs some tiny (relatively) sum to moor there, about £800 +bills a year for a small boat. You have to leave overnight twice a month but other than that you can live right next to the Tower for cheap.

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Stella

JoeV: that had me cracking up. I know what you mean, though. I love having a window in my bathroom and a full bath, for that matter. <br>

Toddlesocks

Know what JoeV means as well, , though have been telling myself bathroom windows are over rated, you may be able to see out but people can also see in.

Stella

I can't see out and nobody can see in, but I love having a window. My dream would be a flat with a garden, full bath, kitchen big enough to sit in and quiet. All rooms with windows opening inside. I'm still puzzled why all windows open to the outside in the UK. What idiot invented those?<br>

Toddlesocks

In the house previous to this one of the neighbors cross the back  had a frosted bathroom window, must have thought that was privacy enough. Could regularly see surprisingly clearly from my kitchen when i was washing up,   this blurry naked vision showering and getting of/on the toilet. I ended up keeping my kitchen curtains permanently closed, been a bit wary of bathroom windows ever since. 

vetski

Hmm, possibly about time I got round to putting a blind up in my bathroom; I've always thought the glass being very textured was enough, but it seems perhaps not!

miss annie

We have a tiny window in the bathroom. It's draughty as the little top pane was missing when I moved in so I shoved bubble wrap in it and four years later have still not replaced the glass. The window mainly serves as another door for the cat. We are on the ground floor and not really overlooked at the back, and the window is under the fire escape stairs. My mum has textured glass and if the light is on in the bathroom you can see in from outside. Fortunately, the only things at the back are massive trees and miles of apparently unused golf course!