Article 50

fabruce

Bringing back control: Britain will become a tax haven and if anything the NHS will only see even further cuts. The people who will be better off are the Eurosceptics elites who will benefit massively from all this. There is no mandate for Hard Brexit as 51.89% of 72.21% of registered voters is barely a mandate for a soft Brexit. If you read the Tory manifesto there is no mention of leaving the single market and prominent leavers always said that it would have never happened. May is an out of her depth puppet who is controlled by the Eurosceptics Tories (a.k.a. the Bastards) Has anyone ever elected May by any chance? I have read the word moaning: some people did exactly the same things for 40 years after the previous referendum. This time it will not stop either. It's called freedom of speech. And it is a fundamental right of this awesome country ! I have already see too many racial attacks to hard working people and I will not accept any argument that is not supported by facts. Post truth isn't truth! Let's see what will happen in a second referendum, because just to quote the eminent among leavers n.farage: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.” What has changed since then?

Ali

Post Mrs May speech going for hard brexit Nissan have decided to review it's Sunderland operation in line with what we end up with. They have a factory that is a set of movable components so pretty easy to move. Toyota are doing the same


HSB and USB moving a couple of thousand people to the mainland is approx £250m tax loss per anum. But I suppose that is not much as Brexit will bring £350m a week into the NHS - total lie


People will wake up over the next year once inflation starts shooting up.

It is already 5 times higher than it was a year ago


It is inevitable that interest rates will increase so hitting folks with mortgages

A lot of people are going to be hit by increased mortgage defaults it is going to take a while for them to notice then they will scream as repositions start

I really would like Greners to list the top ten items that are felt to have been stolen from UK but will be returned to the UK so control comes home ?

grenners

Ali.....Sovereignty thus control over all our issues. I don't believe in a big centralised government it's not accountable and much less democratic than our own system. People talk about appeasing eurosceptics and May being unelected, however it was the people who made the decision however marginal.

maclondon

So the fact that the UK is the most centralised nation in Europe and North America is what you are proposing we revert to? I agree with you that decentralising political decision making is a good thing but that is not what the Brexiteers are proposing - they want the so-called tyranny of Brussels replaced by the real tyranny of Westminster! As with all things, it is much more complicated than simple slogans used by both sides in the referendum debate - i personally would like to see the regions of the U.K. Have real power over decisions, taxes and choices on public services and leave the centre with rules over foreign relations, defence, etc. I think Grenners you need to find another example...

grenners

I'm fixed on Sovereignty and making our own decisions in Westminster however flawed that may be I think it is better. This thread started off with the suggestion of writing to our MP to fetter the serving of Article 50. If you are happy with Brussels maybe you want to write to your MEP on the various issues of Europe. I couldn't do that despite voting in the last European elections. I can't do that as I would have to look up who our MEP is. I also wouldn't know what they were currently debating in Europe that week without some research as our bews rarely report it. Maybe you know? Either way the European parliament is a joke made up of the various Farage types of Europe, a kind of second rate politician even more unaccountable and out of touch than our own. If you don't believe in Sovereignty and the current arrangement of borders then of course we will agree to disagree.
Why are you happy to move our law making powers away from those who we know are not perfect and we know are not operating in a perfectly fair system but we can influence them to a compete load of unknowns some of who may have never even stepped foot on UK soil? Somehow you think the real tyranny is Westminster and Europe will save you?

Ali

I think your right that the UK media ignores Europe except when people want to use it to blame it for problems which are usually within the UK remit. There should be a European news today program like you get on the Continent so we are all better informed. The European Parliament is lot more demoncratic than say the House of Lords although they might save the day on all this.

I see that George Soros agrees with me that Mrs May will not last that long, long enough Ihope to demonstrate this a very daft idea.

Scotland going for independence and getting it within Europe will put the cat amongst the pigeons. It will leave England high and dry!.

I wonder how many UK MPs have stepped foot on soil in Boston Lincs

grenners

If somehow brexit is reverse, (obviously that's the plan for a lot of people I heard Richard Branson is investing a lot of money in this. There will be people pushing all the time for a second referendum etc) then it won't be without serious reform of the EU how it works and what it's aims are. It all depends on whether it holds together long enough to be able to do this. It will have to virtually collapse and be rebuilt from the ground up. Discontent in Europe is brewing.

Ali

The Westminster situation in claiming control is being brought home is nothing less than hypocrisy in its purest form from people who rail about democracy when they are setting out to create an environment in which democracy with it's key value of dissent is belong shrivelled and pounded into the shape they want. They are as I call them the 92 John Major called them the bastards. Brexit is almost like a cult religion simmering just below the surface of society fueled by the lijes of the Daily Mail etc. I wonder how many of the 92 would actually let ordinary people into their own home ? When this progresses it will go on and on about Johnny foreigner while making absolutely sure that their newly beloved ordinary people stay in their places as well. It is those very same ordinary people who feel at the moment the are patriot's who will be hit the most as inflation hits and jobs start to disappear intothe EU. It may be bankers and car manufacturing that are starting to move but remember the mutiplier effects works boih ways. How long before we have a Money shop aguan on SGR? Brenner's don't let them fool you !

krappyrubsnif

Well said, Ali

miss annie

'I wonder how many of the 92 would actually let ordinary people into their own home'

I wonder how many of the middle class people, in their cosy four bedroom houses, who have wrung their hands and shouted loud in public about the refugee crisis have actually offered to take in a Syrian refugee.

Hypocrisy is everywhere.

krappyrubsnif

Went to an excellent Syrian refugee event at Park Theatre yesterday evening, organised by local SG people and featuring several Syrian refugees reading their own (and others’) stories. Plus food, a small exhibition, and music. Moving but practical. Highly recommended. www.talkingsyria.com Based on that experience, I’d say that - with appropriate professional/NGO backup and resources - I'd have no hesitation in taking in a Syrian refugee, at least on a trial basis (and probably for a set period of time). Why not? Any experiences out there?

Arkady

@grenners "I'm fixed on Sovereignty and making our own decisions in Westminster however flawed that may be I think it is better." But what do you mean by sovereignty? Two of the oldest and most successful constitutions in the world are federal or confederal, in that they formally divide sovereignty between different levels of government. One of those two is Switzerland, which proves that democracy can work across different ethno-linguisitic groups. The idea that transnational sovereign democracy as found in the EU is somehow inherently illegitimate is demonstrable nonsense. Worse, it's a nationalist argument. Nationalism is inherently wrong - all the assumptions that it is based on are wrong and the consequences of nationalism would be bad even if those assumptions were correct. You're being a nationalist. You're being wrong. "This thread started off with the suggestion of writing to our MP to fetter the serving of Article 50. If you are happy with Brussels maybe you want to write to your MEP on the various issues of Europe. I couldn't do that despite voting in the last European elections. I can't do that as I would have to look up who our MEP is." Heaven forfend that, finding yourself ignorant of the name of your elected representative, you should have to spend 5 second googling them. Anyway, are you under the impression that most people in the UK know the names of the MP, or their councillors? Because they don't. Maybe we should scrap all democratic levels of government then? "I also wouldn't know what they were currently debating in Europe that week without some research as our bews rarely report it." Heaven forfend that, as part of your duty as a citizen, you should try not to be ignorant. " Maybe you know?" Yes, I read a decent source of news. What's your excuse? "Either way the European parliament is a joke made up of the variou"s Farage types of Europe, a kind of second rate politician even more unaccountable and out of touch than our own." Prove that the European parliament has weaker politicians than any other democratic institution. You won't be able to. Just because we have been in the habit of sending our cast-offs in recent years doesn't mean that the rest of the Union does - some of the greatest politicans of their generation sit in the European Parliament, including several ex-heads of government. "If you don't believe in Sovereignty and the current arrangement of borders then of course we will agree to disagree." And there's your error. You think that sovereignty can only mean some 19th century idea of the nation state. You're wrong. "Why are you happy to move our law making powers away from those who we know are not perfect and we know are not operating in a perfectly fair system but we can influence them to a compete load of unknowns some of who may have never even stepped foot on UK soil?" They may be unknown to you, but that's your problem. And in what sense are they more 'unknown' than any other politician? Because they're foreign, right? And you judge them on that, rather than their ideas, right? Dreadful. I'm a Bromsgrovian. I'm a Worcesterman. I'm a Midlander. I'm a Londoner. I'm an Englishman. I'm a Brit. I'm a European. And above all, I'm a humanist. And there should be democratic governance institutions at each of those levels, making decisions appropriate to those levels. The idea that some of those institutions might contain people of a different identity to me concerns me not at all - diversity is a strength, not a weakness. Only a nationalist would differ. We've already tried governing the globe on the basis of competing nation states without transnational institutions. That period ended in 1945. Arguments like yours were meant to have stopped then. Don't be surprised that people who understand that are still resisting people like you who so evidently don't.

krappyrubsnif

One thing about Brexit, it brings out v-e-r-y - l-o-n-g - r-a-n-t-s from both sides. I prefer the simple version. The whole thing is rubbish. Ahem.

Arkady

Brevity is the enemy of the truth.

Sutent

Words are like leaves; and where they most abound, Much fruit of sense beneath is rarely found

krappyrubsnif

Prolixity is the enemy of understanding - sometimes. @sutent where did you find this bizarre but apt horticultural comparison then? Respect.

Sutent

@krappyrubsnif Alex pope English poet from another century

krappyrubsnif

I think you should bring him to Poetry Group - maybe some time in the next century though.

Sutent

I would love to Krappy. I have to finish writing up my PhD then I will be free

trainspotter

I think Arkady does speak a lot of sense actually. My sense of grief over Brexit, which hasn't really diminished since the result was announced, stems from an attack on my sense of identity. I was a European citizen. I didn't know whether I was British or English but it didn't much matter. I don't have access to another European nationality but again I didn't see why that should matter to me particularly and I couldn't understand why people would go to hassle and expense to exchange their perfectly functioning British passport for another one that would give them the same rights because of some sense of connection to a place their parents once lived but they never have. Now it does matter and I feel straitjacketed by a concept of nationality that I never asked for and is arbitrary at best. I've given up all my rights as a European citizen - and for what? We had far greater "sovereignty" when it actually mattered what our elected Government thought because they were part of a Union that could together achieve great things. Now we are powerless to influence anything that really matters, and will be impoverished as a country in pretty much every way I can think of. I don't like harping on about low turnout etc because frankly if people don't vote they've sacrificed their say, but no one has voted for this hard Brexit we are headed for - there was no vote "for" anything and it's now down to our elected representatives to sort it out on the basis of what they actually believe will be best for the people they represent (which would include children not yet entitled to vote and not yet born), not their career plan.

NorthNineteen

Taking this local I worry it could have quite a bit impact on SG. I recall reading somewhere we have one of the highest proportions of EU nationals living in this area.

krappyrubsnif

Also one of the highest - if not *the* highest - remainer votes in any ward in the country. Last night I spoke to Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) MP who confirmed she will not be voting for Article 50. Good on her.

trainspotter

Is that true Krappy (about the highest remainer votes I mean)? I think I will contact our MP and say I appreciate her gesture anyway.

krappyrubsnif

Well it was right up there I believe but I couldn't find precise figures in the online results table after the vote. I'd really like to know if it can be confirmed.

Sutent

@Krappy Gibraltar was the highest (95.9%) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028

trainspotter

Haringey was among the top. I couldn't find the results broken down by ward though - it looks as if some councils have released them under FoI but some didn't have the figures and they'd mixed up the ballot boxes before the count rather than keeping them separated by ward.

Ali

Full text of the response I got from our MP, She is voting against Article 50 - good on her! Thank you for contacting me regarding the triggering of Article 50. MPs were given our first opportunity to vote on whether the Government should invoke Article 50 by the end of March. Doing so would formally start the process of the UK leaving the European Union. Since the referendum, I have said publicly that I will continue to stand with the overwhelming majority of my constituents on this issue and vote against invoking Article 50 in Parliament. I did this because on 23 June 2016, the people of Hornsey & Wood Green voted overwhelmingly to stay in the European Union, securing the largest remain vote in the UK (81.5%). Continuing to oppose Brexit is the best way I can represent their interests in Parliament. In addition, I have established an All Party Parliamentary Group on the UK Post Referendum to ensure that we continue to pressure the Government to secure the most progressive relationship possible. I am working to building consensus from all parties within the House of Commons to achieve this goal. Our job in the midst of this turmoil is to come together to address the challenges facing the country, support our communities and seek to minimise the damage inflicted on our economy. As your MP I will be doing everything in my power to ensure that the poorest and most vulnerable people in our society, who have already been battered by six years of this Tory Government’s austerity, are not the hardest hit. Should you wish to read more about my views on the matter I have written an article for The Times, which can be found here: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/redbox/topic/brexit-britain/labour-cannot-vote-for-brexit-in-parliament-we-should-not-give-up-on-the-eu I have also written an article for Labour List on why Brexit must not be an excuse for the Tories to dismantle years of social progress : http://labourlist.org/2016/09/catherine-west-brexit-must-not-be-an-excuse-for-the-tories-to-dismantle-years-of-social-progress/ Rest assured, I will continue to stand with the people of Hornsey and Wood Green on this issue, and I will vote against the invoking article 50 when it comes before parliament. With warmest regards, Catherine West MP Shadow Foreign Minister Member of Parliament for Hornsey & Wood Green

HolbornFox

What is the latest with the free movement of people, staying or going? They said that was staying, although they said that about the single market as well.

Arkady

Subject to negotiation, but the government have made it clear they want to get immigration below 100k, so we can assume it's going. There was a hint from Number 10 last weekend that they will seek to restrict movement at every level, from unskilled labour through to the sectoral professions. How they do that without crashing the economy is anyone's guess. And that's before you consider the reprisals - I'm sure we're all looking forward to faffing around with visas or visa waver applications whenever we want to cross the Channel. Welcome to Global Britain.

Ali

Last year there were more immigrants for outside the EU than from within. Rest of world immigration is in the total control of the government. It will only get below 100k once the economy has completely crashed or the jobs have shifted abroad instead of the people coming here to work.