Article 50

miss annie

Very good @Sutent.

Jeanette Winterson's shop is Verde, the grocer and coffee shop - one of the old shops beside the market. She set it up a few years ago to stop one of the big chains going in as she lives above it and has campaigned to keep small independent businesses in the area.

She probably doesn't earn as much from royalties from her books as most people here get paid in their jobs. Most authors are never as rich as people imagine.

Sutent

I loved Why be happy when you can be normal. I must go and visit her shop

Mimsy

trainspotter

"Most authors are never as rich as people imagine." No, and civil servants are probably not either, I would wager. At risk of unleashing yet more of Mimsy's ire, I am her arch nemesis - a civil servant who is also a lawyer. I can assure you that while I may not be changing the world, I did not join the public service because of any promise of golden pensions, and I would be decidedly better off had I stayed in the private sector. I decided that I wanted to do something more worthwhile. Naïve, maybe, but hardly the devil incarnate, or the cause of all your woes.

Mimsy

statistically, you are wrong. It is exactly the pensions paid out to government workers, in a rising longevity environment that is the problem. Its is the payout to the unproductive element of society. And that includes (especially) police and firemen, as well as the regular government cheese. From the Guardian itself: "Ask people where that money goes and the assumptions might be on unemployment or incapacity benefit. In fact, 47% of UK benefit spending goes on state pensions of £74.22bn a year, more than the £48.2bn the UK spends on servicing its debt." (and that's only to 2012) p.s. - I identify the problem, which is destroying us... you can chose to project the devil incarnate from that if you wish... I don't believe in Luciferian nonsense. Extrapolating macro economics in personal, situational politics diverts the eye from the real problem. Also, I never claimed they were the cause of my specific "woes." You read that in yourself.

trainspotter

State pensions is not just pensions to public sector workers though. There was an independent review of public sector pensions that was widely misquoted but quite balanced in its conclusions, I thought. In any case I joined the civil service after the pension scheme had become decidedly less generous, though it has become less generous still since. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-public-service-pensions-commission-final-report-by-lord-hutton "Extrapolating macro economics in personal, situational politics diverts the eye from the real problem." I believe it was you who has said (apologies if I am wrong) on other threads if not this one, that public sector workers do nothing and only care about themselves and their pension. Being a public sector worker, I took that personally. I am not sure how else I should have taken it really.

Mimsy

In the main it is true... not in every individual case... but in the main. I have had decades of dealing with Haringey Council and they are the biggest lay about do nothings I have ever witnessed. For instance (if you want a specific) a "certain" store in the area just received a £30k Council grant to fix its shop front. The shop owner told me flat out, he could have had it done privately for about £6k. I have been in the House of Commons as a researcher and 70% of MPs are blind drunk 24/7. The armed services have so much fat+cream and waste its unreal. I count all of these in the public sector. You should not have taken it personally, if the shoe does't fit you. It doesn't, however, negate the point. Is Haringey Council selling everything off because their financial management over the years is so great?

trainspotter

That's very easy to assert. I happen to have plenty of personal experience of the opposite -and could find you examples of waste and greed in the private sector - where inflated salaries, bonuses, corporate jollies, payouts etc seem to be tolerated even though it is also our pension funds at stake. Most people, on the other hand, are just doing a job and getting paid the going rate. I don't think they deserve your anger "parasites par excellence" etc. In fact my employers are hiring. I believe the starting salary for a qualified lawyer of more than 2 years PQE is £48,000 plus pension. It's not a closed shop. You are welcome to apply.

Mimsy

we'll let the public at large speak on that. I haven;t heard a decent word about them from anyone in 25 years. ... even the politicians can't cover it. Dear Neighbour, Haringey Council has been rated the worst council in London and one of the worst in all of England by the Comprehensive Area Assessment (CAA). As a long time resident and campaigner against Haringey Council’s failings, I must say I’m none too surprised! -L. Featherstone p.s. - the private sector answers to shareholder... the council to no one. Elections don't work, because all parties are basically the same. The fact that a law firm is hiring actively is probably part of the problem. How about tort reform instead to cut the litigiousness of the society?

HolbornFox

@trainspotter not you personally of course but a little story for you. Some 'parasites par excellence' issued a claim form against me over a £400 ground rent dispute, I received said claim form on the day of the hearing. I rang and also emailed the court in Liverpool to say I obviously could not attend and received acknowledgment but the Judgment was still granted against me. At the appeal the Judge said that it was insufficient evidence that I could not attend(!) hence she would not accept any defence I had of the original claim form (I had full defence). She also said that the law firm could add on what costs they wanted as I had missed the opportunity to take the small claims track...they added FOUR GRAND costs... for issuing a claim form...! Don't pay? Lose the flat. Now you tell me if that judge is not in the pocket of the parasite superbe? I have since taken informal advise from Council and they said it was normal for people to not receive claim forms until Judgment has been granted and then cannot appeal, basically there are no CPR rules to it, just pot luck.

Ali

Quote from Mr Hitler on display at the Topographie des Terrors in Berlin. A friend sent it yesterday morning before mad Donald's latest act with his chief lawer

"And these career bureaucrats have a problem with it? I think they should either get with the programme or they can go."

Ali

Mimsy I suggest you try to live without using any public services. You would not be able to leave your front door, it would get quite stinky once your rubbish is not removed, never walk on pavement again never use a road again never use the Park again, never use a bus again never use the tube again, don't get an education, don't have you street swept, allow restaurants to posion you, allow your neighbours rave s all night, tc etc etc. You may believe your beening sensationalist I would just say it is being foolish!

trainspotter

I know the private sector answers to the shareholder. My point was that there seems a lack of scrutiny in practice by shareholders, or a different set of expectations applied via a vis pay and reward.

My employers are not a law firm. I said earlier that I am a civil servant. I see my role as enabling our Government to act within the rule of law. I am not primarily a litigation lawyer but I am involved to a certain extent in defending judicial reviews of Government activity . The ability of citizens to hold the Government legally to account is another important aspect of the rule of law and not one I resent. Someone already alluded to the alternative.

It's quite common for people to row back from a general offensive assertion by saying "we didn't mean you". Why not me? I fit well within the class you are talking about - as do my friends and family.

It's also not true that civil servants can't be sacked. We are subject to the same employment law as everyone else. In fact more so because the Government can and do change the law if they find a contractual term no longer convenient. It's a unionised workforce and they don't generally resort to pay offs when there are performance issues so yes it can take time and effort to address poor performance but that's just a consequence of the employment rights that exist in our country at present. In fact there is more and more use of fixed term contracts in the civil service. I don't personally think that's a mark or progress though I accept you may disagree.

Mimsy

@Ali ... reducto ad absurdum... the last refuge of those without cogent argument. Remember, because I think government is wasteful, inefficient and unproductive .... I am Hitler! now we have redact ad Hitlerum. ... keep running that debt clock up. Keep on running the deficits ad infinitum... when Sterling crashes (it already has) don't wonder why. Does your argument excuse the ridiculous waste, inefficiancy, corruption, and DEBT that characterizes local government. Or better still - let's just keep on keepin' on the way things are... want to take a stab at where that is going to lead? Or are you one of those who say, remain calm... all is well. (It isn't.) ..let's just double council tax... because, in strictly statistical terms... that's what it is going to take. p.s.Ali .... Stroud Green is a garbage dump. I walk it 5x a day. I haven't seen a cop on it in 5 months. Up in Highgate, and even Crouch End, the police patrol all day. Here, all there is is crack dealers.

Ali

Well you have taken the conversation full circle. We all know that the recent crash of the pound is squarely to do with the worsening economics which is because of the way the government is deciding to implement the advisory referendum for which 28 of the uk population voted to leave the EU
That has also contributed to a massive future increase in borrowing to pay to keep the country above water level because is a loss of revenues to the economy not growing as it would have staying on the EU as wider areas of commerce become a single market on top of what exists now.

I hope uoi all heard Ken Clark's speech and why he is voting against Article 50. Very eloquent

Mimsy

Try a 3 year chart of Sterling https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/GBPUSD:CUR That is not Brexit. That is debt. But hang on to the short term look. Yep... Its ALL Brexit's fault. Everything that happens from now on is the fault of Brexit. Yep. I get it. Forty years of deficits have nothing to do with it. Endless financial mismanagement and decades of stacking unfunded liabilities have nothing to do with it. Its all Brexit's fault. sure. /s ... let's give sovereignty over to Brussels... that'll solve everything. (ummm. in case you haven't noticed... Europe is a basket case.)

maclondon

Can't we all just get along?!? This debate should focus on what happens next, not trying to score points on everyone's view of the world. I go back to my original idea - best 'alternative fact' wins! Mine - Jeremy Corbyn wanted Brexit to win so he could go back to his allotment - unfortunately, Momentum is keeping him in power and forced him to get a haircut!

Ali

Mimsy no intentions of trying to compare you to any one German or Austrian. I thought I was quite clear I am talking about Trump.

I was amused when I Google the meaning of you name.

What is your solution to all this debt that your cpmplining about and who owns it ?

Mimsy

@Ali Truthfully there is almost no 'solution' at this point but to crash and burn and await the chance to reset the economy. When it happens, the west will be faced with some pretty stark choices, and there's a decent chance that a totalitarian outcome will be one of them - not that anyone will care much. After all, we are all being monitored on CCTV everywhere we go, and the most draconian snoopers charter ever just came in to effect.... without a peep out of anyone. I would note on this thread, that a ready solution for many people is "let's have even more surveillance everywhere." Probably the last ditch chance is some massive debt to equity swap at the government level, but I'm not really sure it would work. When you've dug a hole as deep as this one, there is no real 'solution' anymore. ..p.s. - Haven't you heard? Trump IS Hitler!

Mimsy

@trainspotter Ok, to clarify - it may mean you. But I don;t know the specifics of your employment. And to be fair.... taking the general point I was making it and inverting to the 'me', (personal) is the obverse of what you claim I do. You 'rowed' into it, by trying to take general points I was making, and involving the personal 'me'. So, as we are it, let's try this... You think 1) Government is a good use of an economies energy? 2) Government has behaved as a prudent fiduciary over the past 40 years? 3) There is nothing essentially wrong with the economy? (other than what the City is doing - which government, in its erstwhile leadership permitted.) 4) Let's all carry on as we have. No problem here. In a 1% interest rate environment, let's keep the 5% council tax increases coming (sounds fair - after all, its making up for central govt. cuts... more of the same everyone points finger, debt keeps growing... cutting the size of government is ruled out.) ... in the end it matters not what I think - it matters if the government can sustain the trajectory it is on. The government bond market will decide... my forecast is that we've hit the peak in government, and the unwind has begun, and it is going to be nasty. If I'm right and the finances of the U.K. will soon resemble Greece (probably within a decade)... what shall we say, in hindsight, went wrong? (I'll venture a guess... "we didn't tax everyone enough.")

trainspotter

I am not an economist, still less a soothsayer. I don't think jettisoning our relationship with the biggest market in town is a sensible financial move though. Nor do I think jobs and people can only be measured in terms of economic output. Classifying firemen as unproductive is just ridiculous imo. Let's all burn to death. Fewer pensions to pay out after all. Happy days.

trainspotter

But to be clear I didn't take offence at your economic world view. If you think many public sector jobs are pointless that's up to you. I objected to your assertions that public sector workers do nothing and care about nothing except their pension cheque, and your imo unwarranted anger towards ordinary people doing their ordinary jobs.

Mimsy

@trainspotter ... public sector workers do not equal 'ordinary people' - you're conflating them to make it look like I dislike normal working people... quite the opposite. Government employees for the most, are not normal working people, they are the privileged... and government needs to be shrunken.. not expanded. (so it does;t surprise me your group is hiring) re: firemen - again, reducto ad absurdum. It is the grotesque expansion of the hiring of police and firemen, not their existence, that I object to. You are distorting this (deliberately) to make it appear as if I wish every fire station to close. Very disingenuous.

trainspotter

I am bored of this now, to be honest. I consider myself pretty ordinary. I told you the salary on offer for my job. It is a decent wage, I'm happy with it, but I don't think it puts me into the realms of the elite. I have an Oxbridge law degree, true, but that wasn't given to me on a plate and I put myself through law school working in the Princess Alex. I'm a middle class professional and in that sense privileged, but still reasonably ordinary.

Arkady

@Mimsy The number of police as a percentage of the population has been declining for decades - rightly given the decline in crime. I don't know about firemen nationally, but I understand that the numbers have been declining in London. This feels like yet another graph or article that you post which actively undermines your own argument.

TheMimsy

@Mimsy As a public sector worker I find your comments deeply offensive. I do not in any way come from a privileged background and anyway, I do not feel like I owe you (or anybody else) an explanation about where I come from. It would be good if you stopped making assumptions about what "ordinary people" are (and aren't). I will not engage with you - I am just sorry that we have a similar user name on this forum - more so that I got here first!

Mimsy

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/policing-numbers/ "The backdrop to the current debate around police funding is clear: the police service in England and Wales has never been better resourced. The last decade has seen an unprecedented rise in police expenditure: reaching more than £14.5 billion – up 25 per cent in real terms. In 2010, each household was paying £614 per year for policing, up from £395 in 2001. Policing in England and Wales is also among the most expensive in the developed world – higher than the USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia." "Most of the money went on people and led to unprecedented recruitment. Total police officer strength rose 15 per cent from 123,476 to 141,631, and there was a large increase in the number of civilian staff (made up of police staff, PCSOs, Designated Officers and Traffic Wardens), who increased 73 per cent from 57,104 to 98,801 over the decade. There are now 7 civilian staff members for every 10 police officers. If the police were a single company, they would be a significantly bigger employer than Tesco Plc in the UK." ...current retrenchment (past 5 years) is nothing more than return to an inflated mean.

Mimsy

@TheMimsy If you want to feel offense that's your decision. (p.s. - you just DID engage with me... and the "i got here first" thing is about the maturity of a 6 year old. BTW - are you at work?)

Arkady

@Mimsy - fair cop (as it were).

trainspotter

I am on my way to work, as it happens, on my day off.