Article 50

Mimsy

.... so virtuous.. keep signaling (and I wasn't responding to you.)

Arkady

Deep breaths people. Reign in the sneering tone please.

Mimsy

Let's reign in the "outrage" too, then... and let's get a sense of humour.

Arkady

Politely expressed upset is perfectly acceptable here, and understandable given the unpleasant and obviously untrue generalisations being made about people's motivations. Snide comments are not. Telling people to get a sense of humour after they've been subjected to such treatment is classic bullying tactics. Abide by the site rules please.

Mimsy

is the skin that thin? Really... the real world beckons... not the sanitized gentrified one you want. You may think my generalisations 'untrue' and 'unpleasant' ... to others they may be just the dose of harsh reality so many fastidiously want to ignore, and won't be prepared for when the world of safe spaces collapse. ...I'm looking for the site rules... a link, please.

Arkady

Linked on the front page in the 'welcome to Stroudgreen.org' section. I'm sure that you can see the distinction between 1) expressing the view that government expenditure is too high and 2) calling people parasites who only care about their pension - the latter being a falsehood which detracts from reasoned discussion. No more of the latter please.

Papa

The sad thing about the public sector vs private sector angst that has been hung out on the line here and pervades a lot of national debate is that both sides tend to be misguided. The public sector is currently suffering a wage freeze but saw wages rise by more than the private sector for many years including immediately after the financial crisis. The public sector does get benefits not common across the private sector, better workplace rights, more flexibility, considerably better pensions. We can all find lots of examples of public sector inefficiency, self-aggrandising schemes and work for work's sake, while not actually providing particularly good basic services. However, the public sector also does all the things that make our life bearable for us. Lots of people in the public sector also work very hard and tend to have less opportunity for swiftly advancing in their careers or salaries, due to banding and grading systems. Public sector pensions are good, but the answer for a private sector upset it no longer gets defined benefit pensions is not to demand their removal from the public sector and a race to the bottom for everyone. If I believed the money would go to improving basic services (not stupid road and parking schemes) I would gladly voluntarily pay an extra £50 per month in council tax.

Mimsy

The Money goes to debt servicing - in an interest rate environment that's the lowest in 300 years. That's where it goes. When interest rates move up... the game is over. http://lada.debtresistance.uk/londons-councils-audit-debt-raising-tax-rates/ a black hole. 40%+ of revenue in debt servicing alone. Now that is just plain mismanagement. There is no way out of this. Taxes will have to go up to the moon, services/salaries/benefits/employees will have to be cut... or default will have to happen. (you may call my characterization a "falsehood". I've seen it in action time and time again. .. anyway Arkady... when someone slams Brexiteers/Farage or Trump... are you going to retain your equality then? when someone calls Farage supporters horrible people? ... ummm I read the rule and regs. I didn't have a go on any individual until they started it with me, obviously irked because I attacked their interest group... not "someone" as is in your 'rules'. I had a go at council workers/civil servants ... and then everyone had a go at me personally. I can take it so I don't care... but really - you may want to amend. )

grenners

If someone believes that public sector workers are parasites only caring about their pensions I think it's perfectly fine to say that. If that offends someone then that's unfortunate but tough. To confirm, I myself do not believe these things about public sector workers. It would be sad if people couldn't say what they wanted to.

Mimsy

in the world of the "safe space" everything causes outrage and offense. In these days of special snowflakes, the words "he brought me to tears" are supposed to silence everyone. Oh, how ripe we are for an oppressive order. It will be with us shortly... and everyone will nod their head in smug agreement when it is unleashed in its totality. "Censorship is the tool of those who have the need to hide actualities from themselves and from others. Their fear is only their inability to face what is real. Somewhere, in their upbringing, they were shielded against the total facts of our existence. They were only taught to look one way when many ways exist.” -Bukowski

Sutent

@Mimsy this is not censorship, you can say what you want. I am sure you are more than intelligent enough to use more articulate words than "parasites"

trainspotter

To clarify I never actually asked for censorship. You said something to which I took offence and therefore I exercised my right of reply - to say I take issue and am offended. Not that you shouldn't be allowed to say it. Though Arkady is also perfectly within his rights to say that any of our statements are outwith the ts and cs of the site. It's a neighbourhood discussion site after all and relies on people wanting to visit it - he's not oppressing us and shutting down our freedom of speech by asking us to take our views elsewhere.

grenners

........very serious....I'm going back to commenting on the quality of the local delis and correct ships etc....

grenners

....should say coffee shops not correct ships.......

miss annie

@Mimsy I confess to not having trawled through the whole thread, What do you work as and how much do you earn in relation to the overpaid people you mention? I think I've probably missed it in the thread. I'll hazard a guess that I earn less than most here - certainly vastly less than those that have declared a salary. However, I do not begrudge someone who has put themselves through Uni a salary higher than mine. We each choose our own path, I've chosen something I enjoy and makes me happy almost every day but doesn't pay an awful lot. My chap comes from a rough old Northern estate and is dyslexic but managed to get himself a Physics degree from Cambridge by sheer hard work and brain power. Not every Oxbridge grad is a liberal elite. I do find it deeply offensive that the likes of Haringey Council top brass (Sharon Shoesmith for example), who have actively contributed to the misery of local people, walk away with pockets full of taxpayers cash.

trainspotter

Yes I think rewarding failure with payoffs is a failing across the board in the public and private sector. It's often cheaper and easier to pay people off than follow performance procedures and really long contractual notice periods seem standard practice in the most senior roles.

miss annie

Also, if you think that a neighbourhood forum where the only rule is 'be excellent to each other' is not for you, I can recommend Facebook as a place where almost the precise opposite often applies.

Mimsy

@trainspotter its the use of that watchword "offended" that is the tell. In the world of "hate speech" being a criminal offense. You'd champion freedom by not using it in such a cavalier manner. It is a moniker for something very very... "take your views elsewhere"??? an interesting proscriptive. Maybe where they can't be heard... or where delicate sensibilities aren't 'offended'.

Mimsy

@miss annie and Toby Harris and a few hundred others that could be mentioned. And do the council workers speak up? I've never heard it... except behind closed doors and in whispered cloisters. When the public rails against it... we get told off and told we're being "offensive". But no one dare mention how the Council dug a hole this deep... no one! And who profited by digging it.

trainspotter

I also am not a fan of the voluntary redundancy schemes that the public sector often favour. If someone's post is redundant it's redundant and there are redundancy laws to deal with that. Or with a large workforce you can manage numbers through natural turnover. You don't need to pay people off to satisfy headline numbers only to recruit again shortly afterwards.

Mimsy

....well, it comes out of the bottom line. Not the taxpayer. --

TheMimsy

@ Miss Annie High Fives to your chap and good for him.

It's tarring everybody with the same brush that I object to.

Mimsy

Its the lack of insiders speaking up about graft, pork and inefficiencies, when they are within the organization, that I object to.

trainspotter

Well yes I know, but it's still wasteful, and if it's a plc, it's still "our money", or could be. And it seems like these sorts of guaranteed payouts become the expected norm and negotiating points when you are competing for the same people when recruiting.

trainspotter

The biggest inefficiencies I see on a daily basis are generally a lack of investment - poor IT, poor business support etc. Things that are cut back in the name of saving money, but which would increase productivity.

Mimsy

....if government tries to rectify these inefficiencies, they will merely create more admin and fail to address the problem IMO. If investment can produce such efficiency (without spawning debt) go McKinsey with it and sell it as a management tool. There is tons of VC out there, waiting for a home - its one of the reasons equities are surging, and share buy backs are taking off.... the money is abandoning the government debt market... looking for a home, and there are too few good ideas out there for it.

maclondon

Mimsy - your doom-mongering is as old as the hills - the points you raise are perfectly valid but your conclusions sound similar to that man who walks around with a sandwich board stating 'the end of the world is nigh' I think it is time for a new thread to be opened - the alternative Article 50 thread - who is with me?!?

Brodiej

It's been nice to read a thread with a pulse. First in 18 months.

Mimsy

... cool man. £ is heading for historic lows and bond markets are turning. One of us will be right - one wrong. Its not the end of the world ... its the end of the EU - and Brexit didn't cause it... and its the end of your pension (which the government seriously cut already, a few years ago.) Its the end of Deutsche Bank - which holds 70% of the German loan book...It is the rise of China...and (horror!) Russia (cue 1950s horror movie sheik).... and the coming surge in the US Dollar... and the equity markets... and it is already the end of Greece... and the destruction of Sweden. So is the world ending? Nope - never said it was. Its just that the party is over in Western Europe...in case you haven't noticed. Mine is a forecast... so is yours... you believe its all just a "spot of bother".... me I say the EU won't make it 5 years. And western Europe is going down for good. I'll look you up in 5 years... and we'll see where we are then. Deal? p.s. - you sound like that Kevin Bacon scene when he screams "all is welllll!" "The EU is blaming everyone but itself for its failures. That means they are incapable of preventing the collapse since they are in total denial that there is a problem. They deliberatly established a system whereby the European people CANNOT vote to change any politician since they do not stand for election. Draghi has engaged in QE since 2008. It has failed for 8 years. But no European can get rid of him at the polls. That means the ONLY was to bring about change is to exit the EU. Verhofstadt cannot bring himself to look in the mirror. We warned this would be the outcome of the EU project back in 1996 for its was designed knowing they wanted federalize Europe while denying that was their motive. ... The European Union’s chief BREXIT negotiator, Guy Verhofstadt, told Reuters that Donald Trump is part of a three-pronged attempt to undermine the European Union. His comments reflect just how deranged the EU politicians really are for they will accept no blame whatsoever for any of their own policies that are dictatorial in nature and have sought from the start to federalize Europe while denying that was their goal all along. Verhofstadt told Reuters that the other two threats were radicalized Islam, which they themselves opened their own borders to accept with open-arms, and from Russian President Vladimir Putin, who just said that Europe should stay together. Putin even warned that the EU would not be a global player as is. Verhofstadt actually claimed that all three parties were working against the progress of the EU project. The EU is doomed and their own refusal to address the autocratic anti-democratic policies have sealed their fate." - M. Armstrong

grenners

Well said Mimsy.....