Article 50

HolbornFox

Fair enough, you can quote me out of context, put words in my mouth and then refuse to respond... i don't think she is really called bobby grummie anyway.

miss annie

HolbornFox, I'm genuinely not interested whether you like her or not. I'm not offering my opinion on her personality, TV appearances (because I haven't seen them) or opinions, just commending her for work she has done for a cause that's important to me.

TheMimsy

Same here.

HolbornFox

Wow, then why quote me out of context!?

Actually don't worry about it, you are right anyway.

Sutent

@Arkady that article is very good. Scary stuff

Ali

Crickey wasn't expecting a Brummey twist and turn on this thread ! I wonder what Brexit is going to do to the 4 million people who over the last 6 years have been pushed to the brink of poverty because of rising living costs and stagnating wages. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation reported that the number of people living below an adequate standard of living had increased by four million to 19 million over the past six years. Shocking really I hope the government does something about this as this situation is probaly very much related to the leave vote. That is probably not likely as the government is hard Brexit Tory on tottering on the edge of being UKIP light. Has anyone got any maps that show the distribution of poverty around the UK?

grenners

Well it seems now that the deluded evil war criminal Tony Blair is coming back to fight Brexit. He needs arresting but may be useful in reminding the 52 why they voted Brexit and making some retainers belive they made a mistake.

Sutent

@greeners I wouldn't get on your moral high horse. I agree Blair is a nasty piece of work but don't forget you voted the same way as the EDL, BNP. Since the vote, it has given people the excuse to attack "foreigners". In the NHS where I work the evidence has shown the number of incidence has increased.

grenners

I think it's absurd to liken brexit voters to BNP supporters. I totally agree those sort of attacks are unacceptable. I might say you voted along with extreme left groups like militant back balaclava wearing anti fascists and communists but I am not going to give you a moral lecture.

Ali

Grenner's you must have missed that he has been back for a while concerning brexit putting quite a bit of his own money into it.

I do wonder who the person will be that will make the big speech that change the flow on this?

I wonder when that will be as the damage becomes more apparent as this will go very badly the wrong way at some point.

grenners

I know he's been sneaking around on this issue but today he has made a formal announcement. Despite being delusional he might realise he's too toxic to front it all and no doubt he is using others money like Soros and Branson for example.

Ali

Once the flow starts going the other way bet you Boris jumps in and changes his tune. He fancies himself as a bit of a Churchill who chopped and changed many times of course only in the interest of the country. I also keep seeing English flags about the place. I wonder if there is a set of people who think England might become a really "free" independent country and leave the UK over this. It would solve the problem for the Scottish and Northern Irish people as they would just stay in the UK and stay the EU. If this all keeps on the track Theresa is taking this Scotland will very definitely go for Independence. Amongst all the folks I know (which is quite few) who voted No last time will definitely vote for Independence as they are very unhappy of having what is an English & Welsh problem take them out of the EU.

grenners

If Brexit works and the EU fails no chance of Scottish independence. If Scotland vote to leave, the SNP will not stop until they get their 52%, then so be it and good luck to them I don't blame them one bit.

Ali

If Brexit works and the EU fails - these will not happen. Tony Blair's speech got a pretty good reception- Iain Duncan Smith, Gove, Boris, Fagash are off the blocks pretty quickly slagging him off - sign of worry !

Ali

Just make sure you "rise up" and get on the London demo on the 25th March !

miss annie

I voted remain but have no problem at all with the flag of St George. The Welsh, Scots and especially Irish celebrate their national days with no hint of shame. Even Cornish people proudly fly their flag. I am frustrated that it's impossible to say you are proud to be English in the same way that the rest of the UK celebrates their identity without being accused of racism, xenophobia, colonialism or whatever. I think of myself first as a Londoner, then as English then British. I'd like the UK to remain united but understand Scotland's (shortsighted) frustration. Never thought of myself as European but in favour of being part of it for the greater good. As for citizen of nowhere - no. I'd be overwhelmingly in favour of London as a city state.

Sutent

I love the fact that St George was a Turkish Arab @miss annie - Unfortunately the St Georges Flag has been hijacked by the right wing groups. When I was growing up I used to be warned about national front skin heads with DM boots who would love to kick a "paki". I think many people of my generation have the same unconscious feeling when we see the flag. The swastika is also a Jain symbol and you can see it commonly in India. Even though I know they are a peaceful lots the sign still makes me feel uneasy.

Ali

Scotland should not of drawn back the last time as they are now all brooding up there waiting for the next chance. It they had non of this Brexit stuff would be going on.

miss annie

Yes, one of my Turkish neighbours was quite pleased to see it up in our window for St. George last year. I was a teenager when the National Front were at their worst. I understand why you would be wary. It's like Muslim friends being afraid to say they are Muslim. There is a general move to take reclaim words that have been hijacked - N****r is used in the black community, women are using C**t, not just as an insult but as a name for part of them, and feminist no longer conjures up dungarees and Greenham Common (google it kids). I hope that the cross of St George can be restored too. In the meantime I will continue to hang my flag to celebrate Shakespeare's birthday.

miss annie

@Ali, I don't know what the Scots think will drive their economy if they leave. fossil fuels are being banned around the world and are finite anyway. Everywhere is overfished. Will their strong position as a finance centre be the same if they are not part of the UK? You can't finance completely free health, social care and education on tourism, whisky and shortbread. Anyone Welsh is absolutely mad to support Leave. Their country was propped up by EU grants, they all need a bat up their nightdress.

grenners

Is that a bat the animal or a baseball bat?

miss annie

It's from Fawlty Towers - my favourite 'If you give us any more trouble I shall visit you in the small hours and put a bat up your nightdress!'

grenners

I should know that.

Ali

Miss Annie, The link below may help the rather Sir Walter Scot view you seem to have of Scotland (with a bit of added on oil and Insurance) http://www.scotsman.com/business/companies/scotland-s-most-popular-exports-1-3900812 Not mentioned is the considerable transfers of electricity from Scotland to England. All that renewable hydro and wind power. It is quite common to find frozen Scottish Squid and Langoustines in the freezer cabinet in supermarkets in Italy and Spain. We don't eat many of them for some reason. Scottish shortbread is very nice and you should try Orkney Oaties (you can buy them in Tesco) with a bit of Mull Cheddar (sometimes available at 19 deli) along with a nice whisky heaven ! On a slightly different tack. If I was a farmer in the UK say with sheep I would be very worried about Brexit. You get about £80 for fat lamb at the moment. 40% of UK lamb goes to the EU. That will have a 40% tariff on it if outside the EU. If the farmer takes that hit he/she gets £30 ie not viable. Add in tariff free lamb from NZ or Australia UK farmers are knackered. It is the same with grain and beef and you include the US. Talk about turkeys voting for Christmas.

grenners

All the farmers voted in but we are not all farmers.......

Ali

I thought 58% voted out.

Arkady

A majority of NFU members voted out, certainly.

grenners

I didn't know that. My farming mate had a massive go at me about the price of lamb. He definitely voted in.

Ali

Got more interested in the farming stuff.

Apparently in the UK there are

212k farms
31.5 million sheep
10 million cattle
9.6 million poultry
4.5 million piigs

Average age of a farmer is 59

The subsidy they get is £3.19 billion

Looking at the above with leaving the EU it is a car crash waiting to happen !

Arkady

One of the few silver linings for me is that my Monbiotist rewilding vision is much more likely to happen given that hill farming and other economically marginal, ecologically devastating practices are likely to be abandoned when subsidies decline.