Shoreditchification

Papa

I see your point, but the food at Season for what you are getting is a much cheaper way of eating in a high quality environment that if you went to Upper St etc, while I suspect that Vagabond latte is better than the Mega Cafe coffee. <br>

JoeV

@Sutent, I appreciate what you are saying but a latte at Vagabond with real ground coffee from an espresso machine is not really comparable to an 80p instant at Mega.<div><br></div><div>Most of the restaurants on Stroud Green Road offer mains for about a tenner. Even at Season, where most of the mains are between £10-15 offers a special main + a glass of wine or beer for £15.</div><div><br></div><div>If someone can't afford it, at least on an occasional basis, chances are they won't be able to afford Pappagone and possibly Jai Khrisna either.</div><div><br></div><div>At least there is still choice, you can get a coffee for 80p a fry-up and a fry-up for a fiver. There isn't much disparity in pricing on SGR. Nothing is really high end, aside from the new Italian farmers' deli.</div>

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miss annie

The only time I have ever thought that a 'proper' coffee tasted better or more special than any other coffee was at Union Cafe (I think that's what it's called), at the south end of Camden Passage. All other coffee tastes more or less the same to me. Union Cafe/Coffee? Also has an absolutely glorious garden downstairs and out the back. A bit like a graveyard in a stately home - lots of mature trees, monumental masonry and whatnot. Lovely, if you like that sort of thing.

Papa

@misscara We all know how heated a 'where Stroud Green is' debate can get. I couldn't resist replying, I'm afraid.<br><br>I think the Stroud Green is an idea / concept definition is best. <br>

Sutent

The choice we have now were not available when most of us moved in to the area. The independent shops have been successful because of the change in demographic in the area. Good luck to them all. In the free market that we live in will decide how well that they do. We have always had upper street and Crouch end, but only in recent times are the type of shops that occupy those areas are opening up here. <div><br></div><div>The real worry is where will it stop. Will it reach a equilibrium or will it continue. Time will tell. We will have a bunch of new students moving in soon, so they will need catering for too. As well as the posh flats near the station that are yet to be built.</div>

NorthNineteen

I'm not sure it's a hard and steadfast rule that roads are named after the place they are going to, I know it is normally the case but there are always exceptions.<br><br>Anyway in this case the following all show Stroud Green pretty much as exactly where Papa suggested:<br><br>http://www.londonancestor.com/maps/bc-isling-n.htm<br>http://www.londonancestor.com/maps/tolls-ne.htm<br><br>Was there ever a green at Stroud Green? Some maps I've seen showed open space in a triangle between Stapleton Hall Rd and Mt Pleasant Crescent. <br>

miss annie

We've had that discussion many times before. There was a suggestion to put up a maypole on the Green a few years ago.

andy

Whether you think these places are good or bad says as much about you as it does about it those places.

miss annie

Maybe, however if you're not a coffee connoisseur a £3.00 coffee from Vagabond is an overpriced waste of cash when an 80p number from Mega hits the spot just as well. I'd like to think that the only thing that says about me is that I'm not a huge fan of coffee.

Papa

@missannie do you even drink coffee? (ie not instant) That could be where you are failing to notice the difference.<br><br>I'm no indie cafe-only coffee snob, but there's a big difference between a proper cup of coffee from a proper coffee machine, or even a cafetiere coffee, and a bog standard cup of instant.<br>

ChangN4N6

On the earlier point yes the fiveways is the real SG centre - near the old Stapleton Hall farm. What is called SG library up near Harringey Station and near the church with the green and war memorial is really on the outer fringe. I think it used to be called the Hogs back ( ie Ferme park hill). Chang

miss annie

I do drink coffee. I've drunk it all over the U.S., Italy and other European countries as well as here because it is impossible to get Yorkshire Tea anywhere else. I recognise that there are tiny differences but nothing earth shattering. I don't drink espresso, maybe there is a difference there. I did taste a definite and massive improvement in taste in Union Coffee/Cafe. I am a great admirer of the way coffee shop marketeers have managed to persuade people that carrying a giant sippy around like huge babies is somehow cool. Clever.

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Sutent

Shame you can't Betty tea in London. Yorkshire tea hard water is next best thing. I am off to York train museum next month so will have to buy a stash of Betty tea.

Papa

@missannie and @misscara I agree, if someone makes you a proper coffee and doesn't cock it up then the differences are tiny but not earth shattering.<br><br>But if someone serves you up instant instead of proper coffee then you can definitely tell the difference, but rereading missannie's initial comment I think I misunderstood and don't think you were saying both of those taste the same.<br><br>I think you were saying there wasn't a huge difference between a Vagabond and a Costa. <br><br>Although problem with Costa, Starbucks et al is they serve massive cups so you are basically drinking a very large cup of hot milk, with a dash of coffee.<br><br><br>

Arkady

Hello all.  Yes I'm alive (and hoping I will stay that way despite possibly having Dengue Fever) and had a splendid time in the Philippines and Singapore.<div><br></div><div>And yes, I will be standing for councillor in Stroud Green ward in May alongside the distressingly hard-working Richard Wilson and Katherine Reece (under my real, if faintly risible name of Ben Myring).  Perhaps some of you will have come to the conclusion that my heart and mind are in the right place and that I might do a good job, in which case do feel free to vote for me!  Twitterers  can follow me @benmyring.</div><div><br></div><div>Funny that the discussion has touched on a 'green for Stroud Green'.  Having delivered all three ward pledges made at the last local election we are considering the creation of a proper public square in front of Vagabond as a pledge this time.  More anon.</div><div><br></div><div>As for 'where is Stroud Green', some of you may remember this map that I put together following a survey a year or two ago: http://batchgeo.com/map/stroudgreensurvey - t<span style="font-size: 10pt;">hose of you to the west of the Stroud Green Road may not be in Stroud Green ward, but you are far from alone in viewing your area as being part of greater Stroud Green.</span></div>

Mirandola

Builder confirmed that Railway will become a Starbuck's.

kreuzkav

Potentially interesting Channel 4 news feature on San Francisco and Britain's crazy rental problems.

dion

Stroud Green is nowhere near gentrification and will not be for years and years.<div><br></div><div>A couple of poxy (no offence Poxy) Sainsbury's locals doesn't make a summer, or a costa coffee or starbucks, all these chains survive by growing a phenomenal number of stores per year and SG, frankly, is second rate demographically.  Rent here is prob between 12k and 40k a year, whereas in CE it is difficult to get anywhere for under 35k, and it would probably be more in MH, i.e. pushing the 60k mark. </div><div><br></div><div>And I think so for the following reasons:</div><div><br></div><div>1. Too much housing stock is still owned by Housing Associations, and will never be sold to, or lived in by people with enough disposable income to make a real difference (how many houses/flats on Hanley Road ever hit the market).  Right to buy does nothing to release stock (what council tenant can afford to buy at a measly 10% discount). CE doesn't have this dynamic so much. </div><div><br></div><div>2. Too much housing stock is still owned by professional landlords, the SGR high street names, galaxy, dinglis, etc, who have butchered houses into bedsits over the last 40 years and will never blah blah blah same as point above, </div><div><br></div><div>3. Transport links to the money, i.e. Canary Wharf, aren't very good, unless you are going to cycle down the canal, so the CW people who earn north of £100k and get decent bonuses aren't generally going to bother with here.</div><div><br></div><div>4. Schools - not a great selection, so will always act as a drag on gentrification, and I am talking private as well as state, not great, and not near. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The 'high end' stuff on SGR is there because of the lowish rents, Season, HH and presumably the new deli at 80.  Muswell Hill must suffer on the indie front because of the high rents - and it isn't the chains that push the rents up necessarily, it is the landlords.  Look at Crouch End - plenty of indies closing.</div><div><br></div><div>I also remember learning about the gentrification of Brixton at school in the early 90s - i don't think twenty years has seen Brixton packed with Oliver F Bonas all it has is a farmers' market. </div>

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kreuzkav

My take on the term 'gentrification' is an area that was run-down becoming more middle-class.  Hampstead and Highgate are old money and not gentrified places.  The term 'gentry' and 'gentrified' should not be confused. <div><br></div><div>I'd say Stroud Green has had a slow degree of gentrification over a few decades and it's become a bit faster over the last few years.  </div><div><br></div><div>Gentrification does have good points, but sadly it often means a richer elite taking over an area in many ways including its culture and urban space, pushing up prices and leading to the displacement of poorer people.</div>

JoeV

Every square inch of London is being gentrified as we type. No one is safe. There will be no survivors. We're doomed.<br>

kreuzkav

JoeV, don't be too negative about it.  We can fight it.  Let's call for rent controls.   Say no to gentrification through sneering at the gentrifiers. <div><br></div><div>Just say 'No' to gentrification. It can be stopped.</div>

JoeV

My name is JoeV and I am a gentrifier.<br>

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kreuzkav

Misscara, I've been aware of gentrification well before wiki was in existence.  It does come form the word 'gentry' but isn't the same thing, although the landed gentry were famous for taking over land and lording over poorer people.

dion

Rent controls are a stupid concept

yagamuffin

Was the housing in Stroud Green not originally built speculatively by Victorian developers for the middle classes to buy and live in? If it is being 'gentrified' then it is only because it has slipped from it's original position. (trying really hard not to sound like a snobby snob snob!).<div><br></div><div>As for rent controls, I would agree with Dion, they are a stupid concept - although I do take great issue with his earlier suggestion that SG has "lowish rents".</div><div>What we need is punitive taxes on foreign property investors and domestic owners of 3 or more houses.</div><div><br></div>

Sutent

Why do you think that Dion?